New EICR to cover any changes made by outgoing tenant?

New EICR to cover any changes made by outgoing tenant?

10:00 AM, 4th May 2021, About 2 months ago 99

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If a tenant moves on should I get a new EICR? I presume if you don’t then the landlord becomes legally responsible for any change that may have occurred during the previous tenancy?

I know it’s not normal for tenants to change the wiring, but they do change light fittings and adjust wiring sometimes without informing the landlord.

Is this an area landlords could get caught out with?

Many thanks

Peter



Comments

by michaelwgroves

11:49 AM, 8th May 2021, About a month ago

Reply to the comment left by Paul landlord at 04/05/2021 - 22:23
Under "Maximum period between inspections and testing" it says and I quote "Change of occupancy/ 5years".

Similar to Paul, I am an electrician and landlord, I am in agreement with all Paul's technical comments, but wanted to expand on the point above.

There are two keys points here, 5 years is the maximum, not the minimum. And the wording is explicit. "Change of occupancy". You should not be asking your electrician to remove this from his report, and if you do, he should decline.
5 years is the de facto for a new installation. However, for existing installations, the period is based on condition, maintenance, and history of modifications. Depending on what the electrician finds, he could advise "1 year or change of occupancy".

So lets now take a look at the requirement to have an EICR. The government guidance is clear, you must have an EICR as set out in the 18th edition. The 18th edition states "Change of occupancy".
My next bit is a question, not a statement, lets say you do not get a new EICR on Change of occupancy, you later serve a s21 (if they still exist). The smug arse lawyer defends his client, funded through legal aid. And says, the s21 is not valid, as you have not served a valid EICR, case thrown out. It's not gone to court yet, but it will..................
For the sake of a new EICR, do you want to be the test case.......

by Seething Landlord

13:38 PM, 8th May 2021, About a month ago

Reply to the comment left by michaelwgroves at 08/05/2021 - 11:49You say “The government guidance is clear, you must have an EICR as set out in the 18th edition. The 18th edition states "Change of occupancy".”
Which guidance are you referring to? In the Regulations the only reference to the 18th edition is in the definition of “electrical safety standards”.
Your post illustrates what I referred to in a previous post, the assumption by electricians that under the testing regime created by the Regulations the "report" should follow all the recommendations and guidance notes from the trade bodies regarding the interpretation and application of BS7671 including frequency of testing.
The Regulations actually stipulate that a landlord must "obtain a report from the person conducting that inspection and test, which gives the results of the inspection and test and the date of the next inspection and test".
NAPIT guidance confirms that “The Regulations just refer to a report being obtained by the person conducting the inspection and test. Typically, an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) is used within the industry for this purpose.” i.e. an EICR might be the norm but a different report would be equally acceptable as long as it “gives the results of the inspection and test and the date of the next inspection and test”.
The purpose of the inspection and test required by the Regulations is to establish that "the standards for electrical installations in the eighteenth edition of the Wiring Regulations, published by the Institution of Engineering and Technology and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2018" are met.
The frequency of testing is not part of "the standards..." and is dealt with specifically in the Regulations, which state "at intervals of no more than 5 years”.
To comply with the Regulations the report must specify the date for the next inspection and test. "Change of occupancy" is not a date, it is an event. If the legislators had intended to require a new inspection on change of occupancy they could have tried to define what that means and done so, but they did not. It is not therefore appropriate for the report to include that wording.

by Pete jinks

19:22 PM, 8th May 2021, About a month ago

Reply to the comment left by Paul landlord at 04/05/2021 - 22:23
Paul landlord - as a landlord with a small portfolio, but also an approved electrician, and member of NICEIC for the last 30+ years, I couldn't have said this better. Good to read a balanced view and an informed response. Am sure there are some electricians who may be taking advantage of the situation. But does this not reinforce the importance to have a relationship, with a trusted, qualified electrician, and to your point, the liability is with us as landlords, so worth just spending a couple of hundred pounds to cover yourself and keep the tenant safe. I am with you, have paid a fortune in the necessary testing equipment, always loathed to do these tests as a real pain to do! My concern, as electricians may try to compete with pricing, and landlords want this done cheap as possible, they might not become worth the paper they are written on.

by michaelwgroves

20:20 PM, 8th May 2021, About a month ago

Reply to the comment left by Seething Landlord at 08/05/2021 - 13:38
I'm referring to "The Electrical Safety Standards in the Private Rented Sector (England) Regulations 2020" https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2020/9780111191934
From this legislation;
“electrical safety standards” means the standards for electrical installations in the eighteenth edition of the Wiring Regulations, published by the Institution of Engineering and Technology and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2018
Duties of private landlords in relation to electrical installations
3.—(1) A private landlord who grants or intends to grant a specified tenancy must—
(a)ensure that the electrical safety standards are met
The frequency is also most definitely in the 18th edition, section 653.3 reads: The report shall indicate a recommended interval until the next inspection, supported by an explanation for the recommendation.

Guidance Note 3, expands on this further, and is 150 pages dedicated to this subject. But more specifically as Paul has already stated, table 3.2 advises “Change of occupancy”

As per my previous post, the government legislation is clear what is required. We also have three qualified electricians all saying the same thing. As fellow landlords, please appreciate we are not trying to rip anyone off, just educate. Please bare this in mind when you reply. Happy to have a debate, but remember we are all on the same side.

by Seething Landlord

22:49 PM, 8th May 2021, About a month ago

Reply to the comment left by michaelwgroves at 08/05/2021 - 20:20
Michael, my only aim is to get to the correct interpretation of the Regulations by reasoned debate. The fact that three electricians are all saying the same thing demonstrates that they agree on what is recommended in BS7671 and GN3 but there is no basis for saying that the same guidance should be applied to the report required by the Regulations, particularly if the Regulations say something different.

The first half of what you say is absolutely correct, but where in the Regulations do you think it says that "you must have an EICR as set out in the 18th edition"?

As you say, "electrical safety standards" is defined as "the standards for electrical installations in the eighteenth edition of the Wiring Regulations", which must surely mean the standards and specification to which the fixed wiring and equipment are installed. No other part of BS7671, let alone GN3 is quoted or referred to in the Regulations.

Frequency is defined separately in the Regulations as "at intervals of no more than 5 years” which as I have said previously overrides anything in BS7671 or its guidance notes.

The Regulations simply require the inclusion of a DATE for the next inspection so anything that goes beyond this is superfluous, confusing and inappropriate.

It is not really relevant to the debate but I now have six recent EICRs from three different electricians, none of which include "or on change of occupancy".

by Mike

2:17 AM, 9th May 2021, About a month ago

Change of occupancy.....Never! how can that be even logical? If I haver an HMO with say 5 unrelated tenants, and assume one tenant leaves every 6 months and a new one comes in, If I was to have my installation tested every bloody 6 months ....can you imagine the impact of testing on that installation, it would bugger it up! and cause more dangerous situation, each time you screw and unscrew parts of installation, manipulate wires to facilitate testing, that is what I said earlier on that the less you subject a perfectly working installation the better, you only ever need to mess about with testing when there are problems and RCDs tripping, the most important thing is the earthing, these can be checked visually by any landlord, does not require an electrical engineering to do so, just as anyone can drive a car does not require a mechanical engineering degree.

by Chris @ Possession Friend

9:43 AM, 9th May 2021, About a month ago

Reply to the comment left by Mike at 09/05/2021 - 02:17
Clearly Not what parliament intended but it's no surprise to have anomalies in the legislation. MHCLG couldn't organise a Pi$$ up in a brewery.
Given this Only applies to PRS, as if the Govt have 'vaccinated Council and Social housing tenants against electric shocks' - and the biggest dangers coming from faulty appliances ( I.e. Grenfell ) and tenant overloading with extension cables etc, to suggest an obscure regulation is able to make an EICR only valid for change of tenancy ( in a HMO, as has been pointed out, that could be every TWO months ! )
Its unbelievable how anyone could support this biased legislation - even though NLA & RLA did so at the time.
And no, I'm not a qualified electrician, but that does not dispossessed me of common sense and the entitlement of an opinion.

by michaelwgroves

11:19 AM, 9th May 2021, About a month ago

Reply to the comment left by Mike at 09/05/2021 - 02:17
HMO's are certainly an anomaly, but not testing until you physically see something wrong is foolish. That's exactly why you need an EICR, we find the problems you can't see.
This attitude is exactly why we need legislation.

by michaelwgroves

11:40 AM, 9th May 2021, About a month ago

Reply to the comment left by Seething Landlord at 08/05/2021 - 22:49
I’m happy to continue the debate, I think I covered your question in my last post
1. You must met the “electrical safety standards”
2. The electrical safety standards means the 18th edition.
3. The 18th edition sets out the requirements of the EICR

The legislation only sets out the maximum term, it leaves the 18th edition to cover the detail.
Section (3) a. puts the duty on the electrician to set that date.
You must take the 18th edition in it’s entirety, the legislation does not have any limitations, you must follow the 18th edition.
If you did not add “change of occupancy” you would not be following the 18th edition as required.

I agree the legislation sets a maximum of 5 years, but leaves the minimum period to the electrician.
In my eyes the date can be an exact date, or a date triggered by an event. The legislation is not restrictive on this. But I fear this debate will be argued in court in the next few years, in the same way we had the fiasco with gas certificates.

by Mick Roberts

13:01 PM, 9th May 2021, About a month ago

Reply to the comment left by Chris @ Possession Friend at 04/05/2021 - 12:47
Brilliant words Chris:
that an MOT garage doesn't write on the expiry date of your MOT, - 12 months or upon change of ownership

My MP said when I was moaning about Licensing, he said U need a License to drive your car. I said Yes, I don't 36 of them do I......


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