New EICR to cover any changes made by outgoing tenant?

Reply to the comment left by michaelwgroves at 09/05/2021 - 11:19If an installation has not been disturbed by ANYONE or by ANYTHING, in 20 years, NOTHING and I mean absolutely nothing would go wrong with it, unless it was not carried out according to BS installation standards in the first place. What then is the purpose of standards?
The purpose of standards is so that any installation is not subject to an early failure and is safe, so if this is the case then why specify 5 years why not specify test every 24Hours? what if a tenant has tampered with wiring the next day you got an EICR ?
So the easiest thing would be to do a basic visual inspection as any Landlord would need to do with the rest of the building during regular inspections, and during change of tenancy, like ensuring all appliances work, taps and controls all work, hot and cold water works, check all sockets visually for signs of burn or stains, he can even buy one of these simple plug in testers to ensure that all earthing and polarity is correct, why subject to an EICR report? where it takes less than an hour and most of it is visual inspection on about 10% sampling, what if the lethal fault was present on the remaining 90% of unchecked wiring, and even if there were problems, RCD would take good care of that, what then is the purpose of requiring an RCD and still need to test wiring every 5 years, just a bureaucratic burden on Landlords.

Reply to the comment left by Mike at 09/05/2021 - 16:36
As technology and our understanding improves, so does the regulations. Grenfell is a good example of why this is important. Never will we clad externally with combustible cladding. New regulations typically come to light because of events like this.
But closer to home, I completed an EICR last year, nothing had changed in 20 years. The original upgrade was completed to a good standard. No DIY, visually it was perfect. However, an insulation resistance test showed something was very wrong. It took me a day to find it, but what I discovered was 12" of T&E cable completely bare. All 3 wires had been eaten by a rodent. When I pulled the cable out, a nest came along with it. It was a house fire waiting to happen.
If your electrician completes an EICR in an hour, show him the door. You might have a certificate, but he has not tested thoroughly. I take a minimum of half a day, sometimes a whole day, but I leave no stone unturned.
Ultimately, you get what you pay for.

Reply to the comment left by michaelwgroves at 09/05/2021 - 17:06
I fully understand where you are coming from, these sort of rodent chewed cables are not just limited to houses, in fact a mate called me to rewire his car electrics where many cables had been chewed through, the poor thing most probably got inside a car but had no means to escape and must have been starving so helped itself to PVC, and yes we are talking here of only 12v Dc and endless fusees blowing, so really this means houses are more vulnerable when they are unoccupied, when mice can't find food and crumbs, they could resort to eating cable insulation, so may be BS could add leaving enough food for the mice in places to prevent electrical fires, (Joking ) but yes I actually deploy this strategy to prevent foxes eating my cats by leaving enough food for them as well.

Reply to the comment left by michaelwgroves at 09/05/2021 - 11:40
You say: You must meet the “electrical safety standards”

Agreed

You say: “The electrical safety standards means the 18th edition.”

No, it does not. In your previous post you quoted the definition correctly. Now you have mis-quoted it.

It means “the standards for electrical installations in the eighteenth edition of the Wiring Regulations, published by the Institution of Engineering and Technology and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2018”

For a proper understanding you also need to take account of the definition of “electrical installation”, which means fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer's side of the electricity supply meter;

The expanded definition of the “electrical safety standards” for the purpose of the Regulations and which landlords are required to ensure are met is therefore:

“the standards for fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer's side of the electricity supply meter in the eighteenth edition of the Wiring Regulations, published by the Institution of Engineering and Technology and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2018”

I do not understand how you can interpret this to include the periodic testing requirements/recommendations of BS 7671 and GN3.

You say: “You must take the 18th edition in it’s entirety, the legislation does not have any limitations, you must follow the 18th edition.”

Sorry, this is simply not correct. What you must follow is the precise wording of the Regulations.

If you are unable to see the difference between the actual definition and your contention that “the electrical safety standards” means the whole of BS7671 I am afraid that there is nothing more that I can say on the subject.

You say: “The 18th edition sets out the requirements of the EICR”.

Quite so, but those requirements are not imported into the Regulations, which do not specify that an EICR is required. They just require “a report which gives the results of the inspection and test and the date of the next inspection and test;”

NAPIT agree with this but apparently you do not.

You say "In my eyes the date can be an exact date, or a date triggered by an event."

I do not agree. The Regulations require the report to specify a date, not a list of alternatives.

Other electricians have said:

Paul Landlord: “Of course nobody does actually do new EICRs on change of occupancy- even though they should and I'm not claiming to be a saint on this either.”

Steve p: “including the phrase is a recommendation” and “I hope that explains why that statement is on most EICR forms and why its really not a big deal, its still a recommendation if its stated on you EICR or not and its still your decision if you act on that recommendation.”

In his second post he said in reply to Gary Nock: “You are correct the British Standards are not law, they are a guide, and as an electrician we can deviate from them …”

What does not seem to have been understood is that it is one thing to have “on change of occupancy” as a recommendation in a guidance note but quite another to include it in a report for the purpose of the Regulations, which converts the recommendation to a statutory requirement with a potential penalty of up to £30,000 for non-compliance.

That is the effect of Regulation 3 (2) (b).

Once it is in the report, the landlord had better make sure that he follows it, however ridiculous it might be.

That is why it is so important to get it right – electricians who insist on including such a requirement are potentially creating huge unnecessary problems for landlords.

The 18th edition is shorthand for the Institution of Engineering and Technology and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2018
So we are also agreed on this.

GN3, also written by the IET is an extension to the 18th edition. It explains some of the regulations in more detail, as some of the wording is complex.

The legislation is clear you must follow the 18th edition, it does not make any exceptions.

The report you are referring to is an EIC, this can be interchanged with an EICR. I am using the term EICR for simplicity.

I agree the legislation asks for a “date”, but it also advises you should must follow the 18th edition. In following the 18th edition, I must include the words change of occupancy. Any electrician omitting these words is foolish.

I feel I am repeating myself, if you disagree, please make reference to regulations and legislation as I have done to backup your thoughts. Otherwise it’s just an opinion.

Reply to the comment left by michaelwgroves at 10/05/2021 - 08:27
1: We are definitely not agreed on the definition of "electrical safety standards" and never will be for as long as you continue to insist that it means the whole of BS 7671.
The expanded definition that I have given simply combines the definition of "electrical installation" in Regulation 2 (“electrical installation” has the meaning given in regulation 2(1) of the Building Regulations 2010) with the definition of "electrical safety standards". This is a matter of statutory interpretation, not opinion.

2: You keep saying "The legislation is clear you must follow the 18th edition, it does not make any exceptions" - the Regulations do not say this, you are reading into them something that is not there. What they actually say is that the landlord must ensure that the standards for fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer's side of the electricity supply meter in the eighteenth edition of the Wiring Regulations, published by the Institution of Engineering and Technology and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2018 are met.

3: I am not referring to an EIC, I am simply quoting Regulation 3 (3) (a). The Regulations make no reference to the type of report required and do not stipulate that it must follow the style or form of report prescribed by BS7671. This is acknowledged by NAPIT in their "Guidance for Landlords", FAQ section. Interestingly they refer throughout to an "Electrical Installation Safety Report" rather than "Electrical Installation Condition Report", a further indication that they realise that there is no requirement to follow BS7671.

4: The Regulations do not "ask" for a date, they require it and without it the report will be invalid. Yet again you make the erroneous claim that you must follow the 18th edition.

5: You have not commented on the effect of including "on change of occupancy" so I assume that you agree that if you are correct (which I emphatically do not accept) it would convert what others seem to think is no more than a recommendation into a statutory requirement.

6: What have I said that you consider to be my opinion rather than a referenced statement of how the Regulations should be interpreted?

On a recent EICR report I got, less than a month ago, my next inspection due date states "0"....what does that mean another one is due already? and if I get another one done today, what happens when my tenant is going end of June, so I will need a third one within a span of three months......sure that can't be right. I think the legislator need to go back to the drawing board and redo the requirement with a clean head.

Indeed this property had a tenant who occupied back in 2015, so EICR report was not then a necessity, but became law from 1st April This year, so I got an electrician to do that but he specified next inspection as "0" years

Reply to the comment left by Mike at 10/05/2021 - 12:47
I suggest that the period of certification is discussed and agreed, BEFORE engaging an Electrician.
I don't employ any electricians who won't give a 5 year certificate.

Indeed Chris, I did contact the electrician and pointed this out to him, he said he didn't think it mattered....lol, and he said if I want 5 year inserted then he will email me another one, I am not in a rush for it as long as he amends the same one to 5 years or issues a new one with 5 years, but he then has to cover me from 1st April 2021.

Reply to the comment left by Seething Landlord at 10/05/2021 - 10:32
1. This is a straight copy and paste from an earlier post. The legislation does not list any exceptions, therefore, the legislation is very clear.

I'm referring to "The Electrical Safety Standards in the Private Rented Sector (England) Regulations 2020" https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2020/9780111191934
From this legislation;
“electrical safety standards” means the standards for electrical installations in the eighteenth edition of the Wiring Regulations, published by the Institution of Engineering and Technology and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2018
3(b) makes it clear every electrical installation must be inspected, I don’t think we are in disagreement about this.
2. Again copied from earlier post 3.—(1) A private landlord who grants or intends to grant a specified tenancy must—
(a)ensure that the electrical safety standards are met.
This compliments the point above.
3. The Institution of Engineering and Technology and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2018 only publish two relevant reports, the EIC and EICR. If you are suggesting you don’t need to use these reports, what reports would you ask for, I am not aware any exist?
4. Exactly the same point as in paragraph 2. You can only achieve this if you follow the guidance in the 18th edition.
5. If the electrician does not put “change of occupancy” he is not following the guidance in the 18th edition.
6. I think you are trying to justify to yourself, that the legislation does not relate to the 18th edition. Every argument you put forward is answered in the 18th edition.
You need to concentrate on point 1. As once we have concluded that, everything become clear. The rest is just noise.