Damage to tenant’s possessions

Damage to tenant’s possessions

10:50 AM, 3rd November 2014, About 10 years ago 29

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Our tenant has informed us today that her £500 pram has been destroyed beyond repair due to a collapsed kitchen ceiling and she wants to claim the full amount from us. In a nutshell, I would like to know if we are liable please. Any advice gratefully received. Damage to tenant's possessions

To give a bit of background, 2 weeks ago on Sunday afternoon, she said there was water dripping through the kitchen ceiling and demanded an emergency plumber on the spot. She said it had being doing it since Saturday but that she couldn’t get through to us to report the problem. Not true, the phone was with us constantly, we received at least 5 calls, none from her. We declined this request and said we would have a plumber with her on Monday morning which we did. Our usual plumber was too busy to go but we used our regular handyperson who builds extensions etc and does small plumbing jobs for us. He checked the sink, under the bath (removed the panel etc) and whilst he found the floor and vinyl behind the sink was wet could find no obvious cause. He felt that the children may have overfilled the sink and it had dropped through. There was also no water dripping in the kitchen.

We heard no more until last Sunday. Same scenario, water p**sing through the ceiling etc etc, again demanding an emergency plumber. Again we declined and asked the tenant to turn the water off and we would have someone there first thing Monday morning. This was met with verbal abuse, being sworn at and the phone being put down on us. We were then called back to be told she was going to get her own emergency plumber and deduct it from the rent. We reiterated that this was not acceptable. Phone put down again… (Strange how this is always Sundays!) this time on Monday, we had our regular plumber who identified the fault as the sealant around the bath not doing its job. He jacked the bath up as much as possible but didn’t have time to rectify the fault. He said it needed to dry out and a frame made for the bath, new silicone etc. he returned to the property on Friday to complete the work. We were called again Saturday to be told it was still leaking and water was still dripping through the ceiling. The plumber agreed to go back again this morning. Apparently a push-fit joint was weeping which he has replaced.
We then received another call this morning, stating that after the plumber went, the ceiling fell in. He had already informed me on Friday (as well as the tenant) that it was vulnerable and I had given him the go ahead to get his plasterer friend to take the ceiling down, replace, redecorate etc. he had informed the tenant that this will be happening on Tuesday. So, all of a sudden, after he left , it caved in its her v expensive pram under it….. Why would you out a pram there knowing it was dodgy is my first thought? The plumber told me this morning that it looks as if they may have been pulling on the ceiling as it was much lower than Friday and that there was no water going down the sides of the bath when he left. It had been filled and blasted with water as a test. Of course proving that would be difficult,nay impossible no doubt.

Of course this could all tie in with her telling me on Friday, (I challenged her as my plumber told me she had found another property) that she is looking for somewhere else as the property is not fit to live in and that we don’t do repairs… She has lived there only 3 months. In that time, there have been new carpets throughout, repairs to window catches, replacement of a cracked bath panel, the roof ridge tiles repointed and £100 given to them for work they have done on the garden. Apparently we are very negligent as she reported this 19 days ago and only now are we doing something about it. The house is now suffering from mould on the upstairs walls, again in 4 years of owning the property, it was never a problem and this has been blamed on the leaking roofs etc. the roofer tells me there was no water ingress at all. Other requests we have had are to sort out the aerial, it was working fine on arrival but now isn’t for some reason and the kitchen cupboard handles which are rusting and new window locks for the upstairs windows as her 2 year old is likely to climb out?! Everything is usually accompanied by ‘this is not healthy for my children’

Quite happy for her to go away but not to then try and take us for a new pram, return of bond etc.
as I said at the start, any thoughts, suggestions gratefully received.

Apologies for the war and peace, it’s just that the devil is usually in the detail!

Many thanks

Julianne

 


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Comments

Joe Bloggs

20:07 PM, 3rd November 2014, About 10 years ago

Reply to the comment left by "Jools P" at "03/11/2014 - 20:01":

its poss that the taps were leaking all along and this has only become apparent once the ceiling came down

Recardo

11:35 AM, 4th November 2014, About 10 years ago

As a builder I know it takes a lot of water a long time to bring down a ceiling. Water puddles on top of the plasterboard, so even if the water is turned off it will still drip through until it dries out, or the constant damp and weight of water brings the ceiling down. Long before this happens, could be months, water will be seen dripping and the ceiling will have water stain and start to bulge.

Anyone with an ounce of sense would not leave anything of value in the vicinity. From what you say it sound fraudulent to me. Keep any remove plasterboard for evidence, and do not just dump it.

Insurance company's will try to not pay out if you have repaired the problem without claiming and letting their assessor view and estimate the cost of repairs. As for the pram I would see it (if it Happened at all) as negligence on her part.

You're best shoot of her, if she has found another place to live will she require a reference. If so this gives you a problem do you pass her onto another unlucky landlord by giving a good reference!

Joe Bloggs

11:44 AM, 4th November 2014, About 10 years ago

Reply to the comment left by "Recardo Knights" at "04/11/2014 - 11:35":

you are pre-supposing its a plasterboard ceiling. and we dont know the quantity of water involved. there are other factors too such as not uncommon for their to be rubble within void. or insufficient fixings.

17:19 PM, 4th November 2014, About 10 years ago

Hi Julianne

I am sorry to hear about all of your issues.

I agree with almost everything people have said above but I thought I'd give you my two cents anyway.

What we are really talking about here is a disrepair claim. The tenants assert there is a problem, this was reported, not fixed on time and as a result, they have suffered loss. The loss is damage to this pram.

If I were you, my first step would be to ask the tenant to establish their loss. Ask the tenant for the receipt for the pram. We only have their say so that it cost £500.00 and if they cannot show this, what are they going to base the claim on?

Even if they can show this, they are not going to get the full value. It cannot be worth as much as it was when it was first bought so give a thought to have much the value might have decreased. To get an idea, you could look at second hand comparable prams.

Before you accept liability, have a think if anyone else could be liable. Your handyman (or plumber I can't remember), for example, told you the ceiling was 'vulnerable'. If he had said that it was in imminent danger of falling down, you may have dealt with it differently. If he was negligent in his assessment you may be able to direct the claim away from you. (note: I'm not saying this is a good idea. It may damage your relationship with the plumber/handyman and in any case may not be the strongest of arguments).

One other thing, and you've already picked up on this, is contributory negligence. This is relevant to how much you could be liable for. Your tenant was told about the ceiling being vulnerable and decided (for some reason) to store the pram underneath. They have therefore, through their own negligence, contributed to the harm they suffered.

What I am trying to get at is that, even if you could be held liable for the pram, you should not be considering paying the price the tenant alleges they paid for it.

You are also in quite a strong position. From what I understand, the tenant is only halfway though an AST. You have a claim for the rent for the next three months which far exceeds any claim the tenant may have. Don't let them forget this even if you are going to let them out of the AST early.

You may also want to think about the reference that the next landlord/agent is going to ask you for. Without this, it may be hard form them to find a good replacement property. Maybe this is of value to the tenant and something you can use to your advantage.

Moving forward, I wish you all the luck in dealing with this nightmare.

Jools P

17:30 PM, 4th November 2014, About 10 years ago

Reply to the comment left by "Recardo Knights" at "04/11/2014 - 11:35":

Hi Recardo

Thanks for your comments. It is plasterboard. The guy has done the repair, going back to paint on Friday.

I've now just had her on the phone now saying the boiler is not working.... I looked it up on line, it's the pressure. I explained how to do it (turn the big blue knob clockwise until it says 1.5) but apparently that isn't working. So now, I'm expected to get a plumber out - NOW. I said my plumber who I also phoned for advice had just sat down to his tea and was met with a barrage of abuse, commenting that how dare he think that was more important that attending to her needs. I confess I ended the call at the point I was told I was f**king useless, not getting any repairs done etc etc and that she was getting an emergency plumber out and once again - taking it out of the rent. I have honestly lost the will to live and wish she would go - on the spot!

Jools P

17:39 PM, 4th November 2014, About 10 years ago

Reply to the comment left by "George " at "04/11/2014 - 17:19":

Thanks for your kind comments George, it is a nightmare....

I think it's the attitude more than anything that gets to me. I think the whole thing is a hoax if I'm honest. To go from a bone dry ceiling to it coming in in less than 2 weeks takes some going. It really is one thing after another.

According to the plumber, she has the house elsewhere already. No-one has contacted me for a reference. To be honest, I'm surprised how little I am contacted. I wonder if this experience is common to others. I always contact the former landlord. As someone has commented though, I think perhaps not everyone is honest in their recollection of their dealings with tenants.

I have just received a call back as I sat typing and asked politely if she was calling back to continue her abuse. Not great, but sometimes you just think, I'm sick of being someone's metaphorical punchbag. She replied that if I was going to speak to her like that, don't bother - and hung up. Happy days!

Mark Alexander - Founder of Property118

17:48 PM, 4th November 2014, About 10 years ago

Reply to the comment left by "George " at "04/11/2014 - 17:19":

Superb advice George 😀
.

All BankersAreBarstewards Smith

19:17 PM, 4th November 2014, About 10 years ago

offer to pay her £500 (with a cheque) for the pram once she has signed a surrender of tenancy and left the property ... then cancel the cheque....

naughty ... but nice......

Romain Garcin

22:17 PM, 4th November 2014, About 10 years ago

Reply to the comment left by "All BankersAreBarstewards Smith" at "04/11/2014 - 19:17":

But then he could get sued for the money without having any defence (having paid by cheque + with clear evidence of payment due).

Considering what we've been told I would bet that the tenant would sue.

All BankersAreBarstewards Smith

23:19 PM, 4th November 2014, About 10 years ago

the tenant just wants out of your property - she has another home ready to move into ...

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