Section 24 question? – BTW Osborne I’m not going to give up and sell!

Section 24 question? – BTW Osborne I’m not going to give up and sell!

15:07 PM, 1st February 2022, About 2 years ago 37

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I’d welcome readers’ thoughts on an issue I have discovered with S24 that was not immediately apparent (to me at least) and I am wondering if I (and my accountant) have right or wrong.

In summary: I thought S24 meant I would benefit from a 20% deduction for loan interest. However, this appears not to apply where you have a loss carry forward and your property profits are eating it up:

In greater detail: I had a loss carry forward from pre-2017. During 2017 to 2021 this loss was eaten up by my property profits, artificially inflated by s24. The issue I have is the qualifying loan interest figure put in Box 26 on page UKP 2 of each tax return 2017/18 to 2020/21 has only been the net loan interest figure after applying the 25% (2017/18), 50% (2018/19), 75% (2019/20) and 100% (2020/21) reductions. It would appear there is no way to apply the 20% relief to the interest I paid 2017-2021 but not appearing in Box 26, meaning the interest I paid each year was applied, and my profits artificially inflated, with no tax relief at all, let alone 20%

My accumulated unrelieved interest is now so high (and will only grow in years to come) it will be impossible for my property profits to catch up meaning it seems I am destined to have the 20% relief applied to my property profits and not to the interest I was unable to declare in Box 26 2017 to 2021.

I guess the way I need to look at this is:

1.1 I need to grow my property profits to equal my unrelievable loan interest each year, that way the 20% is applied to a figure which is the same whether loan interest or profits and so is of the same value to me; and

1.2 The 20% tax reduction applied to my property profits (so my property profits are taxed at 25%, not 45%) is the benefit I get for no tax relief being applied to the interest I’ve paid 2017-2021 but which did not appear in Box 26 while my loss carry forward was eaten up.

Welcome any comments. Have I got this right or wrong?

Btw, it’s brilliant to have this chat forum. Over the years I have read superbly helpful comments from so many contributors.

And finally, BTW, Osborne (yes you) if you are reading this, no I’m not going to give up and sell. Carney questioned my financial sense, my risk analysis and my desire to stand on my own two feet to look after myself and my family. How dare he?!! How DARE he?!!

I will sell when I want to, not because you or Carney, or the big real estate build to rent corporates who lobbied you, say I should.

Dobber


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Comments

Mark Alexander - Founder of Property118

17:39 PM, 6th February 2022, About 2 years ago

It is unlikely that we would recommend incorporation to a person with just two properties but it is possible. If you read the discussion thread above you will see that a case was heard in the Upper Tier Tax Tribunal for a person who claimed incorporation relief on just one property and the claim was allowed. However, that was quite exceptional circumstances.

Whether incorporation is the right thing for you or not isn't really the point though is it? There may well be better alternatives than your current structure, so booking a Tax Planning Consultation would be the first step in the journey to discover what those opportunities might look like.

Barrie Wykes

18:09 PM, 6th February 2022, About 2 years ago

Reply to the comment left by Mark Alexander at 06/02/2022 - 17:39
Thanks Mark,
Good to know that landlords with 1-2 properties wouldn’t be best served by incorporating.
Do I contact the same team for another “tax alternative” or is it another route?

Mark Alexander - Founder of Property118

18:12 PM, 6th February 2022, About 2 years ago

Reply to the comment left by Barrie Wykes at 06/02/2022 - 18:09
All of our Consultants and Tax Barristers can advise and assist in the implementation of all ownership structures for landlords. The starting point is to book a Tax Planning Consultation.

Barrie Wykes

19:28 PM, 6th February 2022, About 2 years ago

Reply to the comment left by Mark Alexander at 06/02/2022 - 18:12
Thanks Mark,
I’ll do it again.

Beaver

11:06 AM, 7th February 2022, About 2 years ago

Reply to the comment left by steve watt at 05/02/2022 - 14:05
This has been an interesting chat. I have often thought that my long term strategy might be property owned in my name but limited company lending money or taking some other role. Although it does of course depend upon how you bought the property and when, and a bit of both is possible.

On national insurance some years ago we got a pensions forecast for my wife. We got a letter with it which said something like 'this is what you might get, but the rules might change so that you ultimately get less, and you might get it much later'. [The subliminal message in there was 'please hurry up and die before we have to pay you anything'].

And I read the letter and thought "...if any company in financial services ever sent me a letter like that I'd say **** off!!!....I'm investing my money somewhere else!". And my investment in residential property would probably make me a better return than my 'investment' in national insurance, which by the way just goes into the general taxation pot and doesn't directly fund the NHS or pensions.

So those of us who have a small portfolio did the smart thing and invested in residential property to supplement our pensions. That's the majority of us and the majority of rental properties in the UK. It's nice to have the choice of ltd co., LLP, SE or partnership. Long may that continue because it affects large numbers of us who were responsible enough to think ahead.

Turhan Mustafa

13:33 PM, 8th February 2022, About 2 years ago

IS IT TOO LATE?
Hello Mark, the general advice offered on the forum I find very useful indeed, including your personal journey in the rental market which I can very much relate too. The recent video with you & Ranjan on Tax planning I found particularly informative. The question posed "Why are landlords resisting"
For my part the reason would be confidence…
I have been in the letting business now over 40yrs personally managing, a medium sized portfolio to include 6 HMO properties. Now at the age of 64yrs I have for some while become more & more disillusioned with the rental market trend.
I no longer have the enthusiasm or energy I once had, eroded by constant pressure and assault on landlords. It is surely likely only to get worse.
I feel the best option for me now, would be to start the process of selling up over a 5-year period, retaining just 4 apartments to bolster income. The main problem being I have not considered carefully enough a suitable exit strategy. The properties were bought many years ago, and mostly in my sole ownership.
Each time I considered the Incorporation route with finger on the Property118.Com button, various accountants including my own said UNLESS holding on to the properties, it would not be suitable in terms of "End Goal " time to be allocated and expense to administer??
I have a wife and 4 adult children
2 HMO properties are currently on sale and under offer, with the prospect of a huge CGT bill looming imminently ...
Ideally, I would like a vehicle (incorporation) to enable me to sell off properties free of CGT, using proceeds to settle outstanding mortgages to others and to end up managing a smaller portfolio??

Alex

15:48 PM, 8th February 2022, About 2 years ago

Hi Turhan

Thanks for sharing. From what you have said I still don't understand why you have not yet booked a Property118 Tax Consultation? You have so many thoughts going around your head; you clearly need a third party perspective from a professional who really knows what they're talking about.

You have so much to gain from a Property118 Tax Consultation and nothing to lose. Please, please, don't take any further action before you have booked and received a tax planning consultation - it could save you tens of thousands of pounds!

https://www.property118.com/tax/book-a-consultation/

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