Section 24 question? – BTW Osborne I’m not going to give up and sell!

Section 24 question? – BTW Osborne I’m not going to give up and sell!

15:07 PM, 1st February 2022, About 2 years ago 37

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I’d welcome readers’ thoughts on an issue I have discovered with S24 that was not immediately apparent (to me at least) and I am wondering if I (and my accountant) have right or wrong.

In summary: I thought S24 meant I would benefit from a 20% deduction for loan interest. However, this appears not to apply where you have a loss carry forward and your property profits are eating it up:

In greater detail: I had a loss carry forward from pre-2017. During 2017 to 2021 this loss was eaten up by my property profits, artificially inflated by s24. The issue I have is the qualifying loan interest figure put in Box 26 on page UKP 2 of each tax return 2017/18 to 2020/21 has only been the net loan interest figure after applying the 25% (2017/18), 50% (2018/19), 75% (2019/20) and 100% (2020/21) reductions. It would appear there is no way to apply the 20% relief to the interest I paid 2017-2021 but not appearing in Box 26, meaning the interest I paid each year was applied, and my profits artificially inflated, with no tax relief at all, let alone 20%

My accumulated unrelieved interest is now so high (and will only grow in years to come) it will be impossible for my property profits to catch up meaning it seems I am destined to have the 20% relief applied to my property profits and not to the interest I was unable to declare in Box 26 2017 to 2021.

I guess the way I need to look at this is:

1.1 I need to grow my property profits to equal my unrelievable loan interest each year, that way the 20% is applied to a figure which is the same whether loan interest or profits and so is of the same value to me; and

1.2 The 20% tax reduction applied to my property profits (so my property profits are taxed at 25%, not 45%) is the benefit I get for no tax relief being applied to the interest I’ve paid 2017-2021 but which did not appear in Box 26 while my loss carry forward was eaten up.

Welcome any comments. Have I got this right or wrong?

Btw, it’s brilliant to have this chat forum. Over the years I have read superbly helpful comments from so many contributors.

And finally, BTW, Osborne (yes you) if you are reading this, no I’m not going to give up and sell. Carney questioned my financial sense, my risk analysis and my desire to stand on my own two feet to look after myself and my family. How dare he?!! How DARE he?!!

I will sell when I want to, not because you or Carney, or the big real estate build to rent corporates who lobbied you, say I should.

Dobber


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Comments

Mark Alexander - Founder of Property118

14:40 PM, 5th February 2022, About 2 years ago

Reply to the comment left by steve watt at 05/02/2022 - 14:25
There is no requirement for a business to be “trading” to qualify for incorporation relief - see HMRC’s CGT manuals and their “meaning of business” section in the TCGA92/s162 manuals. Also see HMRC vs Elisabeth Moyne Ramsay case law. She owned one HMO that had been subdivided into 10 flats, 5 of which had been refurbished and let and the other five still under refurb at the point of incorporation. She won her case for claiming ‘incorporation relief’ at Upper Tier Tribunal. She wasn’t a Partnership either!

Yes we do hear from a lot of landlords with a handful of properties and we advise them accordingly.

In regards to the case study I linked you to for the unencumbered landlord, yes 25% corporation tax will impact him but he will still be substantially better off than he was pre-incorporation, don’t you agree?

Do you also follow how he can access significant cash from his company without the need to declare dividends or pay salary/bonus and how the reset of base costs also facilitates his objectives rather nicely?

Mark Alexander - Founder of Property118

14:44 PM, 5th February 2022, About 2 years ago

Reply to the comment left by steve watt at 05/02/2022 - 14:28
https://www.gov.uk/renting-out-a-property/paying-tax

“You have to pay Class 2 National Insurance if your profits are £6,515 a year or more and what you do counts as running a business, for example if all the following apply:

being a landlord is your main job

you rent out more than one property

you’re buying new properties to rent out”

If your client has another form of taxable income they will be eligible for pension anyway

steve watt

17:25 PM, 5th February 2022, About 2 years ago

Reply to the comment left by Mark Alexander at 05/02/2022 - 14:40
Thank you very much for that. You have brilliant knowledge of this area.
I will revisit your comments and check through the scenarios in terms of tax.
Very interesting these tax planning strategies, I would like explore more of this and less of the rather mundane tax compliance work that I do.
We need more people like you to help us survive everything the government throws at us.

Mark Alexander - Founder of Property118

17:38 PM, 5th February 2022, About 2 years ago

Reply to the comment left by steve watt at 05/02/2022 - 17:25
Thank you for that.

We are widely regarded as the UK’s leading landlords tax planning strategy law specialists.

Do you still hold the opinion that incorporation «with the new dividend tax rates it is an absurd strategy» or have you softened on that now?

steve watt

19:30 PM, 5th February 2022, About 2 years ago

Yes I take back "absurd". I am sure you have carefully worked through the tax and other implications, and for each candidate the figures must have been attractive. I am a firm believer in the use of companies as useful and flexible vehicles.
It has inspired me look in more detail at this area as I am always interested in optimisation. I will see how it may work for some of my clients.
It is a vast area when you look at family succession, IHT, retirement, equity release, QROPS, use of trusts, sharing with spouse.

Mark Alexander - Founder of Property118

19:42 PM, 5th February 2022, About 2 years ago

Reply to the comment left by steve watt at 05/02/2022 - 19:30
It is indeed, even within the niche we operate. General Practitioners don’t stand a hope in hell of getting this right for their landlord clients, which is why so many of them refer their clients to us.

Let’s have a chat offline. My email address is mark@property118.com

Meanwhile, please see https://property118.com/ebook

steve watt

19:59 PM, 5th February 2022, About 2 years ago

Reply to the comment left by Mark Alexander at 05/02/2022 - 19:42
It has been a very interesting conversation and I will make sure I fully understand the mechanism after 28th February once the tax return hell is over.
At least if I send clients to you I will have checked the math to see if it works for them.

Mark Alexander - Founder of Property118

20:03 PM, 5th February 2022, About 2 years ago

Reply to the comment left by steve watt at 05/02/2022 - 19:59
We can help you with that too. We have bespoke software.

Are you seriously still working on 2020/21 returns at this point? Wow!

Monty Bodkin

10:45 AM, 6th February 2022, About 2 years ago

Reply to the comment left by Mark Alexander at 05/02/2022 - 20:03
2.3 million still expected to file;

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-than-102-million-filed-their-self-assessment-by-31-january

More than 12.2 million customers were expected to file a Self Assessment tax return this year. The remaining 2.3 million customers expected to file by 31 January now have until 28 February 2022 to submit their late 2020 to 2021 tax return and avoid a late filing penalty.

Barrie Wykes

17:18 PM, 6th February 2022, About 2 years ago

Reply to the comment left by Mark Alexander at 05/02/2022 - 17:38
H Mark,
Are you saying or even agreeing that landlords with 1-2 properties shouldn’t bother with incorporating? Is it worth it?
I have 2 properties and tried to use your incorporation help link but they asked so many “technical” questions I couldn’t answer.
Would be good to know if it’s still worth pursuing or not?

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