Here’s a radical idea – Stop Shooting Fish in a Barrel

Tony Atkins thank you for your very valuable contribution to this discussion.  You are echoing the words of the many landlords I speak to all the time.

To Gareth and Tony

Your justified complaints make me sooo glad that
emigrated - in 1962!

Get out now. It is never too late to stop being shafted.

Tony, you don't understand how the system works. For quality to win there has to be a level playing field.

I heard on the radio that the government housing benefits budget is £30 billion annually. £30 billion!  That's nearly as much as the NHS and it excludes the cost of the Council staff who administer it.

I know of a landlord in my area who put two married couples in a large room separated by a curtain. When one of them complained he said he was going to close down because he couldn't be bothered with the regulation. He asked them to leave. As soon as they had gone, he got another tenant - from the Housing Officer, who apparently knows all about this guy.

Now with £30 billion going into the system you would think that the Housing Officer would be able to find a respectable landlord wouldn't you?

How is it that he cannot? It seems inconceivable that with that vast amount of tax payers money going into housing he cannot even get a couple a room to themselves.

Consider that too many landlords find the cost of providing a legitimate service too much for the returns and leave the market.

Unscrupulous landlords on the other hand love the licensing costs and regulations. They don't follow them anyway and they know the costs put their legitimate competitors out of business leaving the field clear for them.

Hi Donald

I think you have hit the nail on the head. Please take a look at my latest comment on "The GOOD Landlords Campaign" thread (link below). In that comment I published a reply to an email I received from The Mayor of London's office and some of my own comments. You might like to comment there too as I suspect the Mayors office may well be following that thread now. I know The Express Newspaper are and I have a teleconference scheduled with them next week about it.

You can sort comments by Newest first and oldest first. Mine is the newest comment to save you a bit of time as there are a LOT!!!

The link is http://www.property118.com/index.php/the-good-landlords-campaign/21994/

Donald your last paragraph is SO important. My fear is that the only landlords who will remain in the business long term will be those who reduce their overheads by breaking the law.

An increase in interest rates and property prices will trigger a huge change in the PRS - both will come at some point

When the supply shrinks and demand continues to increase, as it will, the rogue landlords will have a field day.

    The landlords of Norwich have been asked to pay £1800 for an HMO license renewal, which is a 666%!!! increase in the initial HMO license fee of £275 five years ago. 

    As a director of the Eastern Landlords Association ( that has no HMO's in my portfolio) I am involved in ongoing negotiations with our members, the council and soon our MPs into why in a council statement "We estimate there are 10,000 rental properties in the Norwich area but we only have a record of 160 HMO's".

  This is a distillation of the whole initial discussion. The 160 registered HMO's are no doubt owned by honest reputable landlords.The majority of the monies gathered by the scheme are spent chasing some of the landlords who have deliberately avoided the scheme.

Important points about the new £1800 fee are:

 There is no reduction of the £1800 fee if the license is a renewal.

  The total fee of £1800  has to be paid for again if the property is bought by another landlord.

   If a landlord is in financial hardship the fee is not reduced but they will be able to pay the £1800 fee in instalments of  £360 a year after satisfying a means test.

   I do sympathise with the council staff, like Ben, that even if they prosecute a rogue HMO landlord, will not gain any funds into the housing team coffers but as Mary stated in her original Blog comment why should the Good landlord  be penalised for being honest and signing up to the HMO license scheme.

  The logical step would be to encourage our MPs  that represent us "the people" to change the rules used in the system by allowing the councils to impose large fines on the unscrupulous deliberate  landlords that are deliberately avoiding paying the HMO fee. 

  This would act as an incentive to bring forward the reluctant landlord that would happily pay the fee if it were to be used by the council to encourage an overall increase in the standards of HMO housing and therefore increased quality of life for the people we serve - the tenants.

"The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line" Omar Khayyam

Regards Phil Walters Norwich

Hi Phil

I am one of those Norwich landlords, I'm also an ELA member. Have we ever met?

This has already caused me a problem this week and I have spent most of my day sorting it out with my tenants around their kitchen table. Andy Fretwell at ELA has been an absolute diamond by the way and you can tell him that and show him this post if you wish.

I have one of those super trendy 4 bed propertiues on Wherry Road where many of the Norwich city footballers are also owners. I've owned it from new and my tenants have been there for nearly seven years. As it only had 4 tenants in it I didn't need an HMO licence. However, unbeknown to me until this week, two tenants moved out in April last year and an unmarried couple moved into one room and another single chap into the other. Therefore, there are now 5 people living in the property. The original tenancy was pre deposit protection rules and they sorted the deposit between them so that's one less worry dealt with but as you can see, I now have a problem and Norwich City Council are aware of it too.

The only reason I found out about this is that one of them has now lost his job and has claimed benefits. The Council asked for a copy of his tenancy agreement and of course he doesn't have one. My tenants are Hungarian and didn't know they had done anything wrong.

WHAT A MESS!

If I allow them to stay I need to create a new tenancy, protect the deposit and get an HMO licence as it would become a licenceable HMO. It's not worth doing it for £1800.

What choice did I have other than to serve a section 8 on the grounds of breach of tenancy? Well between my brother and I, we've been in email communication with them and with Andy Fretwell from the ELA all week. It started to get unpleasent though so we decided that a face to face meeting was the way forward. They all wanted to stay but I wasn't prepared to pay for the licence and neither were they. They have been model tenants in terms of paying the rent, looking after the property, reporting minor issues before they become big problems etc. and the last thing I really wanted to do was to go to war with them in Court to get them out.

Fortunately, there is a happy ending to the story. It's amazing what can be achieved over a cup of tea around a kitchen table isn't it?  They finally understood that it's the law that's an ass, not me. One of the tenants has agreed to move on so that the others can stay and we will sort a new AST and protect the deposit for the remaining four so it will not become a licenceable HMO. Will the 5th actually go though I wonder or will he become a "permanent guest" of the remaining four and register elsewhere on the voters roll?  Only time will tell I guess but so far as far as I'm concerned, I think, or at least hope, I've done my bit to protect my position. 

PHEW !!!

Hello Phil, Is my friend Derek still with the association?

As you know the "moving finger" is being lured back and it is only a matter of time before Gov. come up with some changes to legislation to include a renewal, rather than a re-license, procedure but in the mean time the good guys are being made to pay for this rediculous oversight

I have managed to get some discounts for my landlords to reduce the fee but not enough in my opinion.  I put some figures forward during, what was laughing known as, consultation on the new fees and these took the form of a penalties structure for none compliance to put the cost of chasing illegal operators where it belongs but so far I have not managed to convince my authorities that this is the right thing to do.

I agree with you the fact that all this is meant to improve the living conditions of our tenants has been totally lost.

Mark this is a great example of the law interfering with a good landlord and good tenants and making things worse.  Norwich has now lost a good quality letting bedroom and gained nothing.

I am glad that you were able to sort the problem out without falling out with your tenants and its always great to hear that a landlords association has been able to help a good landlord - well done ELA

Hi Mary

Derek is indeed a gem, he retired a few years ago and is loving it so far as I know. I met him several times at various ELA do's and I can honestly say he was one of those people who would eat, sleep and breath landlord legislation. He used to be one of the guest trainers at the CPD events we put on for our Consultants whilst I was at The Money Centre too and was very well thought of by all of our Consultants. His retirement was a real loss to all landlords in East Anglia but I do know that he was showered with cards and gifts which he thoroughly deserved God bless him.