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9:12 AM, 15th March 2018, About 6 years ago 25
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Two days ago the Ministry of Housing, Communities & Local Government launched a survey “Questionnaire used for the English Private Landlord Survey 2018.”
The Ministry says that landlords and agents who are protecting a deposit in one of the authorised schemes are randomly chosen to participate, and will be written to by the scheme concerned.
Click Here for the questionnaire
It is not just aimed at people who hold property in their own names. On page 3 it asks:
“Which one of the following best describes how you currently rent out your rental property(ies)? By “rental property” we mean residential property you own and rent out, but do not live in yourself.
(1) As an individual or group of individuals
(2) As part of a company
(3) Other (please specify)”
(These categories are later referred to as LLCat 1 2 & 3.)
I was surprised to see that the questioners are treating gross rents on a par with taxable income.
On pages 29 & 30 it reads:
“{ASK IF RoleTyp = 1}
RtInc (VARLAB: gross rental income)
Thinking about the last 12 months, approximately what was your total gross rental income from your rental property(ies)? (i.e. before tax and deductions, mortgage, letting and other operating costs)
{ASK IF (RoleTyp = 1) and (LLCat = 1 or 2 or 3)}
LlInc (VARLAB: landlord income)
Thinking about the last 12 months, what was {LLCat = 1 or 3: “your”; LLCat = 2 “your organisation’s”} total gross income (i.e. before tax and deductions) excluding income from rental property(ies)?
{Ask if RoleTyp = 1 and RtInc or LLInc = missing}
LLPrpInc (VARLAB: income from rental property)
What percentage of {LLCat1 = 1 or 3: “your”; LLCat1 = 2: “your company’s”} gross income (i.e., before tax and deductions) is rent from rental property?
(1) Nil
(2) 1% to 25%
(3) 26% to 50%
(4) 51% to 75%
(5) 76% to 99%
(6) All or 100%
(7) Don’t know”
RoleTyp 1 is Landlord (as opposed to Letting agent)
(It would appear from the programming instruction that you will only be asked for the above percentage if either of the first two questions is not answered.)
This is very worrying. Why are they comparing gross rents with taxable income? This is not just comparing apples with pears, it is comparing apples with pear trees.
Why do they want to know what your total income would be if you were not allowed to deduct the normal costs that all other enterprises in the country deduct?
They want to know how many properties you have, what they are worth and what the loans on them are. They want to know exactly how much you receive in rent, exactly how much you earn from other sources, but they don’t want to know how much the costs of your property business are.
Is the government thinking of disallowing all operating costs, following propaganda from David Kingman who claimed credit for the introduction of Section 24 – which is already filling Travelodge bedrooms with homeless families?
He recommended that mortgage interest be disallowed in a report for the Intergenerational Foundation in 2013 (shortly after graduating in Geography). In the same report he uttered the preposterous lie that “Landlords receive a public subsidy worth up to £5 billion in tax relief per year. This is relief that they are able to claim for their business expenses, including the 10% “wear and tear” allowance and interest relief on mortgages.”
£5 billion was the amount that he calculated that landlords would have paid in EXTRA tax IF NO BUSINESS COSTS AT ALL HAD BEEN ALLOWED.
To describe the non-collection of extra tax that would be imposed if landlords were discriminated against as a public subsidy because they weren’t being discriminated against is an abuse of both language and logic. It was a nonsensical lie, designed to mislead gullible people.
However, it was good enough for Natalie “Brainfade” Bennett of the Green Party who adopted S 24 as policy, and for George “Bolter” Osborne who introduced it.
On page 2 the questionnaire states “If you have any questions about the survey, please feel free to email landlordsurvey@natcen.ac.uk or telephone 0808 168 1356”
It would be rude not to.
Participation will be by invitation, and presumably will not be compulsory. It would be a shame if the survey was boycotted due to the intrusive financial questions and the treatment of gross rent as taxable income. Perhaps better just to leave those questions unanswered?
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Appalled Landlord
14:34 PM, 22nd March 2018, About 6 years ago
And I have already had a reply
“Thank you for your email and your interest in the English Private Landlord Survey.
We appreciate that, as you point out, gross rents are not the same as a landlord’s taxable income, and that there are deductions that come off this amount before it is taxable. However, in order to keep these questions simple and straight-forward, and allow respondents to answer the questionnaire in a way that does not take up too much of their time, we have only asked landlords about their gross rents and gross non-rent incomes. We will be clear about what these figures mean, and account for this in any reporting or analysis. I can assure you that, as part of the questionnaire development process, we tested these questions with landlords and asked whether respondents had any issues with them – essentially all respondents were able to provide this information, and were confident in its accuracy.
With respect to the question that asks about the percentage of a landlord’s gross income that comes from rent, please note that landlords are only asked to estimate this if they are unable to respond to either of the two previous financial questions. If landlords are able to give estimates for their gross rent and gross non-rent income, they will not be asked. I can appreciate the routing of this question may not be very clear from the questionnaire form (though the survey itself is programmed to exclude that question automatically if the previous two are filled in). We included this in response to concerns from landlords who were unable to give a clear estimate of their annual income from non-rent sources (for example, they were a freelancer and their annual income varied), or were wary of giving out detailed financial information, and were more comfortable giving a range instead.
Again, many thanks for your time and interest in the survey.
Kind regards”
So I replied
I was aware that the percentage question will only be asked if a reply to the previous two questions is missing. That does not affect the principle. Presumably if both of the latter are answered the computer will do the calculation.
“However, in order to keep these questions simple and straight-forward, and allow respondents to answer the questionnaire in a way that does not take up too much of their time, we have only asked landlords about their gross rents and gross non-rent incomes.”
If you had asked landlords for their rental profit and other taxable income for the tax year 2016/17 they could have given you accurate figures - that were also useful - without difficulty
“We tested these questions with landlords and asked whether respondents had any issues with them – essentially all respondents were able to provide this information, and were confident in its accuracy.”
I do not doubt that they were able to provide accurate figures. The point is that they are not comparable. Combining the two gives a nonsensical figure; calculating one as a percentage of their sum compounds the nonsense.
”We will be clear about what these figures mean, and account for this in any reporting or analysis.” The combined figures do not mean anything. How are you going to account for this in any reporting or analysis? Does the word “any” imply that you might not include this nonsense in the survey results?
Kind regards
Ian Narbeth
14:44 PM, 22nd March 2018, About 6 years ago
Reply to the comment left by Appalled Landlord at 22/03/2018 - 14:34Well tried, but I think you are flogging a dead horse. Unless you can get the attention of an economist or statistician who will attest that the methodology is wrong, I fear you will keep getting fobbed off.
Michael Barnes
21:50 PM, 22nd March 2018, About 6 years ago
Reply to the comment left by Appalled Landlord at 21/03/2018 - 21:48
Have you considered the effect of gross rent vs taxable profit?
It seems to me that gross rent may be in LLs favour, e.g.
- non-rent gross income = 20K; gross rent = 20K; rent = 50% of income.
- non-rent gross income = 20K; taxable profit=5k; rent = 20% of income.
The second of these would suggest that taxing profits at (say) another 50% would reduce disposable income by 10%, but the first would reduce disposable income by 25%. Which do you think would be easier to "justify"?
Monty Bodkin
16:38 PM, 23rd March 2018, About 6 years ago
Been selected to complete the survey. The wording and layout is a little bit different from the draft.
The nonsense question about gross rents is still in there.
Some scope in the 'other' box to give them the answers they don't want to hear, but limited to entering only a few characters.
Very easy for them (or any 14 year old with an interest in such matters) to identify who has completed the survey.
My feeling from it is slightly positive. I think they are realising the catastrophic effect the recent landlord bashing will have. Expect some back pedalling in the Autumn budget (too late for me though).
Appalled Landlord
17:43 PM, 23rd March 2018, About 6 years ago
Reply to the comment left by Appalled Landlord at 22/03/2018 - 14:34
The Ministry’s reply today did not address my questions. It read :
“I’m sorry you’re disappointed with the wording of these questions; however, we are satisfied they collect the information we want, and that landlords will be able to quickly and easily respond to them.
If you receive an invitation to the survey, we hope you participate. You are, of course, free to leave these questions blank.
Many thanks for your interest in the English Private Landlord Survey.
Kind regards"
Note "the information we want"
So "leave these questions blank".seems good advice.