EICR work required but I have a section 21 problem tenant?

by Readers Question

10:09 AM, 16th February 2021
About 3 weeks ago

EICR work required but I have a section 21 problem tenant?

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EICR work required but I have a section 21 problem tenant?

Where do you stand if EICR work might need doing, but you have a broken relationship with a problem tenant who scared the electrician away and stated no electrical work will be done in the house?

A satisfactory report was given last June with a recommendation to install sockets in bedrooms due to there only being one socket currently in the bedrooms (this has obviously dragged on so long due to covid). The tenant was served a section 21 for various reasons including subletting, so I had no choice, but to ask them to leave. They are due to leave on the 1st April, but I know they will hang on>

I have the texts from them saying no electrical work will be done. I also had the same issue with the gas inspection due.

Where do you stand with these situations?
Many thanks

Darryn

Comments

michaelwgroves

10:05 AM, 22nd February 2021
About 2 weeks ago

Reply to the comment left by Bob S at 22/02/2021 - 09:57
Sorry, what is the 'P' word?
If you are a member of a Competent Person Scheme (CPS), which you MUST be to complete an EICR, the scheme insists you have the relevant insurance.

Bob S

10:24 AM, 22nd February 2021
About 2 weeks ago

Reply to the comment left by michaelwgroves at 22/02/2021 - 10:05
Professional.

And the relevant insurance is ... ?

steve p

15:54 PM, 22nd February 2021
About 2 weeks ago

Reply to the comment left by michaelwgroves at 22/02/2021 - 10:05
Sorry but there is no requirement to be part of a competent persons scheme to carry out an EICR, also not all electricians or domestic installers are covered by their competent persons scheme to carry out EICR's

steve p

15:56 PM, 22nd February 2021
About 2 weeks ago

Reply to the comment left by Bob S at 22/02/2021 - 10:24
Indemnity insurance as well as liability insurance as you are giving professional advice so you need indemnity insurance to cover if that advice is wrong.

michaelwgroves

21:10 PM, 22nd February 2021
About 2 weeks ago

Reply to the comment left by Bob S at 22/02/2021 - 10:24
My CPS requires me to have Professional Indemnity and Public Liability

Bob S

21:28 PM, 22nd February 2021
About 2 weeks ago

Reply to the comment left by michaelwgroves at 22/02/2021 - 21:10
Thank you Michael - that closes the loop beautifully. Sorry to ask but would you know if that is common place generally as a CPS requirement? Knowing that there is PI & PL insurance in place is a much stronger link between judgement on subjective areas of regulation interpretation and the LL’s responsibilities. I’ll sleep easier with that !

michaelwgroves

22:36 PM, 22nd February 2021
About 2 weeks ago

Reply to the comment left by steve p at 22/02/2021 - 15:54
You were correct under 17th Edition Amendment 2, but this changed under 17th Edition Amendment 3:2015. You now need to be a "skilled person"

But you raise a very good point about not all electricians being covered by their CPS to do EICR's. I would imagine this would invalidate their insurance if they were to do so. This makes it a minefield for customers.

michaelwgroves

22:43 PM, 22nd February 2021
About 2 weeks ago

Reply to the comment left by Bob S at 22/02/2021 - 21:28
I also thought I had closed the loop, but Steve P raises a very valid concern.
To be on the safe side, you should check your electrician has a CPS EICR certificate, to ensure he is covered for EICR's.

Bob S

9:51 AM, 27th February 2021
About A week ago

My apologies, I’m catching up on a busy week and simply needing my poor grey cells to understand the logic links.

So, we are saying that the person to carry out an EICR needs to be a skilled person under the legislation with PI as they are providing a report that has judgements / legislative interpretation / advice embodied within it. That same skilled person may wish to be a member of a CPS that may or may not have PI insurance provided as part of that CPS and that the skilled person should verify to themselves and the appointing landlord that they are covered by the CPS PI insurance to provide an EICR and if not provide their own PI. And therefore if the skilled person cannot demonstrate either route of PI cover the LL should move on to the next electrician and check theirs before appointing.

Now, where is the logic link that connects ‘skilled’ to ‘competent’ and how would the courts interpret? A simple web search suggests:

“ A skill is the learned ability to perform an action with determined results with good execution often within a given amount of time, energy, or both. ... Skill usually requires certain environmental stimuli and situations to assess the level of skill being shown and used.”

“ People who are competent have a good grasp on information that is presented to them, evaluate that information, use the information to make decisions, and understand the repercussions of those decisions. Those who are unable to use these skills can be deemed incompetent in a court of law.”

In reading the NAPIT write up within the NRLA pages on Portable Appliance Testing, ‘competent’ is thrown around like confetti.

I’m fully supportive of have someone with the right ‘skill sets’ and ‘judgement capacity’ to be a regulated person to fulfil the obligations within a piece of legislation for a LL to discharge duty of care obligations.

So, in order of increasing robustness from a LL perspective :
A - Legal minimum - a skilled electrician, no PI, a risk to the LL.
B - A skilled electrician with PI, at least there might be some financial redress to the LL.
C - A skilled electrician who is a member of a CPS that implies a level of competency but no PI cover through the CPS so the redress risk is no better than A.
D - A skilled electrician who is a member of a CPS where PI cover is not provided through the scheme but the skilled electrician provides their own.
E - A skilled electrician who is a member of a CPS where PI cover is provided through the scheme.

E sounds the route for the LL to demonstrate to the best of their ability that they have discharged their obligations under the legislation at minimum commercial risk.

Now I may have this completely wrong so be gentle !

michaelwgroves

10:12 AM, 27th February 2021
About A week ago

Reply to the comment left by Bob S at 27/02/2021 - 09:51
To clarify, we used to talk about 'competent', but this was too ambiguous, so the IET changed this to 'Skilled' in 2015. Skilled to the IET is someone with qualifications and experience.
Many people will have differing views to what skilled means, but we are only interested in the IET's views here.
An electrician is required to have PI to be able to join a scheme. The CPS does not provide this.
A landlord needs to ask an electrician firstly for proof of registration with a scheme, then to view his certificate that allows him to complete EICR's.
I would suggest a landlord completing all these checks would be deemed to be diligent, and fulfilling his legal requirement to his upmost ability.

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