Bob S

Registered with
Tuesday 9th February 2021

LL of 15 years and all the greyer for it !

Latest Comments

Total Number of Property118 Comments: 22

Bob S

11:14 AM, 19th April 2021, About A year ago

EICR has thrown a complete spanner in the works?

Reply to the comment left by Dylan Morris at 19/04/2021 - 10:16
Good morning Dylan and JGM - could you identify the regs and guidance to help provide substantiation to these points please? I'll be keen to better understand the background.
BobS... Read More

Bob S

8:42 AM, 17th April 2021, About A year ago

EICR has thrown a complete spanner in the works?

There are other detailed threads on this forum regarding EICRs and the qualifications needed to carry out test and inspection.
The bottom line would appear to suggest that a skilled electrician qualified to the current addition of the electrical regulations holding a city and guilds test and inspection certificate together with professional indemnity insurance and able to demonstrate experience by being a member of a scheme (NAPIT, NICEIC,etc) is what a landlord should be seeking. This does mean that the client, the landlord, needs to be strong enough to ask current or new electricians to demonstrate their robustness and qualifications to carry out the works, ie. to do their due diligence. I foresee a time when through accident or incident when the EICR is called into question that a case could be brought against the landlord for having a non-compliant EICR which logically could expose the landlord to the minimum of a fine up to £30,000. Electricians are either ignorant of the landlords responsibilities or knowledgable that fear sells and has the opportunity to take the unwary on a ride.
For the landlord, start with the government website that identifies whether an electrician is registered to carry out tests and inspection, continue to the scheme (NAPIT, NICEIC, etc) websites to verify registration with the scheme, but, and a big but there does not appear to be a way of independently checking whether an electrician holds a current city and guilds test and inspect certificate. Competent persons schemes might show that an individual electrician has experience and knowledge but from my understanding it is not a requirement to carry out EICRs as the competent person schemes appear more to be self marketing operations by the poachers turned gamekeepers.
NICEIC on their website suggest that electricians are invited to ‘identify’ their test and inspect credentials on the government website but it is not mandatory. So an electrician can say to a client that they have test and inspect qualifications but the client will be unsure because they don’t appear on the government website and the credentials cannot be checked back against city and guilds so there is no independent means of verifying whether the electrician is being honest or not.
Landlords are robustly being held in the gun sites but they are not being provided with the means of defending themselves in the marketplace.
In these days of big data it should be possible to independently verify that in this particular instance an electrician has the full set of competencies to carry out the works at a reasonable cost for the landlord who has obligations to fulfil.
After doing all of the above I ditched two electricians due to the rather sidestepping language and directly ignoring the questions I asked. The third electrician Who carried out my EIC are appears on the government website to carry out test and inspect but on the day exposed that his city and guilds had run out but that he was covered by his gold card through the ECS scheme. When the EICR was issued it was accompanied by a scheme statement confirming that the company was registered as an approved electrician and domestic installer, no reference to city and guilds test and expect certification.
Used elsewhere on this particular thread I completely agree that the system stinks!... Read More

Bob S

14:26 PM, 30th March 2021, About A year ago

Surely I am not the only landlord worried about new EPC requirements?

Just to re-join the thread.

Having eventually, I believe, got to the point of a current list of 32 higher efficiency night storage heaters that are allowable under EPC assessment and then having had a curved ball thrown in by one of this forums contributors that not all storage heaters are born equal I asked my prospective DEA the following question:

"A contributor reported on a Landlords forum that not all of the 32 storage heaters provide the same EPC benefit. Can you close the loop for me please and confirm if there are or are no differences in the 32 storage heaters when it comes to the allocation of EPC benefit?"

This was the response:

All heating systems can have varying efficiencies, gas boilers do and so do high heat retention storage heaters, not massively, but they can vary. It also depends on how many heaters are in the property and if they are in every habitable room.

I find this to be an example of the answer being so right that its wrong! How can a LL plan, budget and programme work to improve the accommodation for their tenants and achieve compliance by appropriate investment when its a lottery as to what the result will be as the rules are not fully exposed.

Bear in mind that the exemption for high cost / all costs is currently based on an accounting period that started on 1st October 2017. I have foolishly spent money trying to stay ahead of the curve when I already had a band E but before the new band C in 2025 was proposed. If a new accounting start date is brought in to accompany it, then previous expenditure to improve to date may not be allowable to gain a C in the future and I'll be exposed to a new £3.5k or £10.0k cap when the consultation results are announced this spring.

I have an E, I expect to get an E or better but not a C later this summer. I'll hold off initiating new works till I have better sight of the lay of the land before I spend any more.

Finally I noticed from the Non-domestic EPC consultation that not only are .gov looking to raise the standard to a band B but also to align the two criteria of Energy Efficiency and Environmental Impact. PRS beware....... Read More

Bob S

13:25 PM, 30th March 2021, About A year ago

Unpicking reality from requirement - EICR?

Reply to the comment left by Badger at 07/03/2021 - 13:48
Thank you Badger for your input all of which is taken in the spirit intended, but and it is a big but, in a couple of days time all ASTs will require an EICR or the landlord is faced with the potential £30k fine. It will only take the lifting of a few stones for a LA to find a route to start issuing fines to repair their frail budgets. I'd rather be seen as potentially vexatious or weird if it means that I have a compliance trail that the HSE can follow as we have duty of care responsibilities to our tenants. More fool a LL who blindly accepts a piece of paper simply because they didn't want to upset anyone.

Since starting this thread I have found an electrician who will not confirm his credentials except stating that his boss signs off the EICR and yet his boss will not be their, and now wishes to charge an arm, leg and first born to attend and add in 4 No PAT certificates, good job - he's binned. A second electrician who is sending in his mate to do the test and inspect and despite direct questions relating to the C&G certification will not state that his mate has the certification in place, If I receive the confirmation that I believe I need then this electrician this time will include the off peak board that he avoided last time round - yes every days a school day. And a third elsewhere where the T&I has been undertaken but the paperwork is not forthcoming. I have approached the C&G to ask if there is a register of those whose C&G 2391-52 certification for T&I can be checked but you have to have a centre number to get beyond their telephone 'fire wall' and the IET who put me through to the 'Carlsberg complaints department' whilst I showered and made lunch.

So if the issuing / policing bodies either by phone or web search will not or cannot provide the reassurance that we are approaching the appropriately qualified T&I electricians, and the electricians themselves smoke screen their certification for the delivery of EICRs being requested it suggests that the EICRs currently in circulation may not be worth the paper they are printed on. LLs beware.
The expectation is that LLs are professional in their approach and delivery - I for one expect the same of the trades especially as the LLs have their backs to the wall and their open wallets on the table in front of them for the authorities to pick over.

The challenge is not over yet....... Read More

Bob S

13:19 PM, 7th March 2021, About A year ago

Unpicking reality from requirement - EICR?

Paul, RL & Michael - many thanks for your time and thoughts on this subject. It is hugely appreciated as I have great respect and understanding for those in the electrical industry having been a mechanical building services engineer for many years. Perhaps I should apologise for being mildly provocative in my OP as I wanted to prompt for comments at the level that you have provided. As landlords we should plan for the worst and hope for the best and in doing so I take the line of anticipating where the health and safety executive would first call if something went drastically wrong. Landlords are the clients and data controllers and it would be there that the door bell would ring first not the agents. It might be an over generalisation, but the government and the IET are coming at the subject from the deliverers perspective and that the client will be coming at it from the purchasers perspective and needs to demonstrate that what has been purchased satisfies their obligations.
I concur with the thinking that the minimum to allow an EICR to be produced may not be in the best interests of the landlord and consequently I will be asking for the EICR forms to show linkage to the qualification covering the current version of the wiring regs, EICR testing exam pass certificate, Professional Indemnity insurance and Competent Persons Scheme as well as asking for the same in the invitation communication to the electrician.
Discussions with the electrician who was at my private residence yesterday, expressed the same level of understanding and detail as your posts. The electrician I’m talking to for an EICR in May at one of my rental properties in another part of the country, seems to shoot the breeze but is not engaging in dialogue about qualifications and may find that his price is too high! I may end up with a very short list of electricians to engage, but at least I will have done my due diligence.
Thank you again.... Read More