Section 8 issued Lodger with no agreement and allegation of harassment

Hi David,

This one is a bit too messy for me personally to want to give you advice, but we have many experienced readers who can hopefully help.

I would say that I would contact the professionals in this instance as it will save you money and time in the long run. Please see our tenant eviction page under the legal tab >> http://evicting-tenants.net/

There's too much going on here to give any certain answers David and it's a confusing read. You really need to sit down with someone (solicitor/legal adviser) to get some proper advice about this.
If the 'old' tenant remains, it sounds like she's an 'authorised licensee' - you have given permission for her to be there. She is no longer your lodger as you were not resident when her new 'tenancy' was created and you do not live there. I believe you need to serve an 'old fashioned' 4 weeks NTQ to end the contractual tenancy. However I do not think you need a court order/order for possession to lawfully evict and I believe after the expiry of a NTQ you can lawfully evict by changing the locks.

No, you are not allowed to move back into the house if the old tenant stays. Unless of course the new tenant specifically wants you to. However if you did this would not mean she reverts back to a lodger.

tenant falls from ladders cleaning gutters

AST clause states tenants responsibility

7.34 To clear any stoppages or blockages when any occur in any of the drains,
gutters, downpipes, sinks, toilets or waste pipes and ventilation ducts which
serve the Premises.

also AST sates another clause landlords responsibility

9.3 Whilst this Agreement shall take effect subject to the provisions of Sections 11
to 16 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 (as amended by the Housing Act
1988) which imposes on the Landlord obligations to repair of the structure and
exterior (including drains, gutters and pipes) and certain installations for the
supply of water, electricity and sanitation (including basins, sinks, baths and
sanitary conveniences and for space heating or heating water but not other
fixtures, fittings and appliances for making use of the supply of water and
electricity), the Landlord will not accept responsibility for charges due incurred
by the Tenant except in the case of an emergency

can tenant still sue for damages

Reply to the comment left by "Neil Patterson" at "15/02/2016 - 11:18":

If its any help. If you have lodgers then an excluded tenancy is what you need to set up . This is outside the scope of the protection from eviction provisions. You can give reasonable notice without a court order .

This is the only time I've come across a case of landlord assignment where there is an apparent assignment between live in landlords.

Normally, if a lodger landlord COMPLETELY moves out of the property, leaving the lodger in situ, that lodger can become a tenant because they then have exclusive possession of the property.

Lodgers are usually licensees and not tenants because English landlord and tenant legislation defines a tenant as someone paying a consideration (rent) AND having exclusive possession for the duration of the agreement. A licensee does not have exclusive possession and therefore cannot be a tenant.

However, in the poster’s situation, he moved out but he immediately handed over possession of the property to a tenant (his former second lodger). From what I understand, the first lodger has always lived there with a live in landlord (firstly with the property owner, then his tenant).

In short, I don’t see how the first lodger can now be a tenant because she never had exclusive possession of the property, but I’ve never come across this situation before and may be wrong.

If she is a lodger, her rights of occupation will end when the tenant’s tenancy is terminated and the tenant gives vacant possession, but she can’t give vacant possession if her lodger is still there.

For the record, a non 1988 Housing Act (a contractual, or excluded) tenant DOES need a court order to evict, but it’s much easier to obtain than it is with an AST.

Reply to the comment left by "Mandy Thomson" at "15/02/2016 - 16:42":

Thank you for all your replies.

I was stupid by leaving the house and trusting the new tenant, I just couldn't live with the lodger any more. I thought getting a tenant would be easy, the contract for the tenant was supposed to be short term until I decided what to do with the house. She was originally on a 3 month contract, then she wanted long term after 3 weeks. I didn't want anything long term as I wanted to sell the house. Due to her loving the house, I stated I wasn't happy with the state of the house ie kitchen and roof was a little dated and would need a new roof in years to come. Due to me being on a low wage, I couldn't afford it. I then agreed to take out a buy to let mortgage, so I could do all the work. I stupidly said to the tenant I'll accept £520 per month until the kitchen and bathroom was totally refurbished. My buy to let solicitors wanted her to sign a latter, basically stating the house was subject to a mortgage. She refused to sign the letter which prevented my mortgage and the works commencing. She then complained to the council, stating it was dangerous etc. Nothing was wrong with the house, kitchen and bathroom was just dated. Nothing heard from the council. She's refusing to pay the rent stating she fears me not paying her deposit back. Her deposit is in a deposit scheme. She's also stated the gas cooker failed it's gas safety check, I received proof it passed only a few weeks ago, same as the boiler. She's been a nightmare. All this from a " senior estate agent" she also stated I must leave pots and pans and plates, cups and cutlery etc when I move out.

Since posting on here I have been in touch with stephenson solicitors and I'm submitting all the proof for them to help me. Does anyone know of any solicitor that they would recommend please?

As you can tell I'm not a land lord by the name and was just thrown into it, I've tried my best to keep both happy, but it's all gone wrong.

My apologies, I couldn't log in properly so i used this Facebook account that an ex girl friend set up for my dog. Don't ask, wasn't my idea ?

Reply to the comment left by "Laursen Williams" at "15/02/2016 - 17:33":

It wouldn't be a first! 🙂

I've had the 15 minute phone consultation which Cotswold Barristers who sponsor this site offer, and the barrister I spoke to was extremely knowledgeable and helpful. It's a good starting point, and will hopefulyl offer some reassurance.

For someone to represent you, I'd try Anthony Gold http://www.chambersandpartners.com/uk/person/630330/giles-peaker Their solicitors are extremely knowledgeable about licences to occupy and more unusual landlord and tenant matters.

Your tenant sounds like a textbook bad tenant, though most of them are at least clever enough to invent an issue that can't be readily refuted!

You wouldn't believe some of the issues I've had to endure from the tenant such as dodgy electrics, then when I attend she admits she didn't put her plug in properly. She pulled off a ceiling light in the kitchen and blamed me. Conservatory was clean when I lived there, she then started using a tumble dryer in there which caused condensation damp, she then demanded I had it cleaned of which I did. She then thanked me and said it was spotted. She then moaned it wasn't clean enough a week later and was comlaining to the council. She then complained it was too cold in the conservatory, I then offered to buy a new calor gas fire or electric fire, she chose electric, then complained a week later saying it was too expensive. I had told her electric fires were expensive, this even had economy mode. How did she know it was too expensive to use just a week after?

Forgot to state, she fell out with the lodger a week after she signed the tenancy agreement. I have lots of proof that she wanted her as a lodger. Whilst I was living there I issued a ntq to the lodger, tenant still wanted her as a lodger, week after signing the letter she wanted the lodger our, her notice had expired. I got a court order for possesion against her. Date is for29th Feb. Since then things have been OK between them. Is it worth trying to post pone the court date and ensuring both of their names are on the date, just in case. Their section 8 is for 12th April. Tenant has expressed an interest to leave before that. She however wants me to surrender the 6 month contract. I'm happy to surrender providing they both move out.

I only started court proceeding against the lodger because of the harassment from the tenant stating it was my responsibility to evict her, I since found it wasn't my responsibility.