My HMO (House in Multiple Occupation) Dilemma

Published 21/01/2012

By Mark Alexander, landlord and founder of Property118

Part of Landlords Log, Mark's Personal Blog

Norwich City Council are now charging £1,800 for an HMO licence, a 650% increase! Extortionate I think but so far as I knew, it didn’t affect me as none of my properties are licenceable HMO’s, until…

Before I go on with my story, just in case you don’t know what an HMO is it’s a property with three or more stories let to 5 or more tenants, and HMO stands for House in Multiple occupation.

This week my brother and I have spent hours sorting out a problem we didn’t know we had.

I have one of those super trendy 4 bed properties at Riverside, Norwich, where many of the local Premiership footballers are also owners. I’ve owned it from new and my tenants have been there for nearly seven years. It is a four bed three story town house but as I only had four tenants in it I didn’t need an HMO licence.

Unbeknown to me until this week though, two tenants moved out in April last year and an unmarried couple moved into one room and another single chap into the other. They sorted it all between themselves and didn’t see the need to tell us at the time. Therefore, there are now 5 people living in the property.

The original tenancy was pre-deposit protection rules and they had sorted the deposit between them so that’s one less worry to deal with but as you can see I now have a problem, and to make it worse Norwich City Council are aware of it too.

The only reason I found out about this is because one of the occupiers of my property (not one of the people I thought was living there) recently lost his job and has claimed benefits. The Council have asked him for a copy of his tenancy agreement and of course he doesn’t have one. In fairness to my tenants, bless em, were not aware they had done anything wrong. I can easily see how any tenant could inadvertently create this problem, foreign or not. Tenancy law and HMO rules are not something the average person has any awareness of are they?

WHAT A MESS!

If I allow them to stay I need to create a new tenancy, protect the deposit and get an HMO licence as it would become a licenceable HMO. The scary thing about that isn’t just the cost though. I wouldn’t put it past Norwich City Council to bring in Article 4 HMO planning. If that was the case I might not be able to convert the property back into a family home and its value could plummet as as result. That’s another story though!

What choice did I have other than to serve a section 8 notice to give the tenants two weeks to vacate the property on the grounds of breach of tenancy? Well between my brother and I, we’ve been in email communication with them and with Andy Fretwell from the Eastern Landlords Association all week. Andy has been brilliant by the way, if you live in East Anglia I strongly recommend you to become an ELA member.

The email communications started to get unpleasant so we decided that a face to face meeting was the way forward. They all wanted to stay. They have been model tenants in terms of paying the rent, looking after the property, reporting minor issues before they become big problems etc. and the last thing I really wanted to do was to go to war with them in Court to get them out on the grounds of section 8 and breach of tenancy.

Fortunately, there is a happy ending to the story. It’s amazing what can be achieved over a cup of tea around a kitchen table isn’t it?

Once I had met with them and got them to understand that it’s the law that’s an ass, not me, we began to have a civilised and sensible conversation. The outcome is that one of the tenants has agreed to move on so that the others can stay and we will sort a new AST and protect the deposit for the remaining four so it will not become a licenceable HMO.

Will the 5th actually go though I wonder or will he become a “permanent guest” of the remaining four and register elsewhere on the voters roll? Only time will tell I guess but as far as I’m concerned, I think, or at least hope, I’ve done my bit to protect my position.

PHEW !!!

About Mark Alexander
Mark and his family have been investing in property since 1989, initially in the Norwich area but more recently across the length and breadth of England. Mark created Property118.com as a social network for landlords with a vision of becoming the UK's largest online property community and the best respected property services directory and landlord news. Mark's experiences and strategies as a landlord are shared here Email - mark@property118.com

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39 Comments »

Paul

Of course in Scotland anything more than 2 tenants is HMO Licencable regardless of number of floors.

Question: How long can a guest stay before being considered a tenant.

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Gilly

Hi Mark,

What bothers me is that your tenants all love the place they live in (and who wouldn’t, by the sound of it) and yet somehow or other you find yourself in a position where you are not quite complying with the law. I had the same problem when the law changed from 6 people to 5 people in 3 storey houses, so that after 25 happy years it suddenly was deemed to be an HMO with mandatory licensing,, even though it had had several successful inspections and I had documents stating that it was a single household (considered as such because of the cohesive way they lived, – environmental officers seemed to have more discretion in those days).

In my area, you would find that even with four tenants, you would probably still have to put in fire doors, smoke alarms etc.  I have a lovely shared house, under-occupied with only four unrelated tenants and so deemed to be in bedsits – even with a food kitty, one television in the lounge, eating together etc.

When this happened previously I ended up converting the house into flats, mainly because fire doors do reduce the price and damage it being sold as a family home.  In your property, there may not be a lock in sight and when they are all on one AST then it may escape the category – but just a cautionary tale, before you are too relieved.

Don’t get me wrong, as I am all for fire safety and there is a full mains alarm system in place, four fire exits and further equipment, but apparently I am even supposed to go there every week to test it. (The tenants are not deemed to be the best people for this job? ) Don’t let me start….there is a whole post on this subject…..I am just about to fight this in court, so if anyone can give me examples of low risk, 2 storey houses which have locks, (as required by most Insurance companies these days) but which do not require fire doors, please let me know.

p.s. the government needs shared houses to combate the housing shortage, particularly with the new LHA rules and yet the legislation against shared houses is getting worse by the year.

£1800 – what????

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Tony Atkins

Aren’t you going to lose out on rent though? Generally couples sharing a room expect to pay substantially less than two single people with their own rooms, and you will now have an empty bedroom because the 5th tenant is leaving (or is meant to be).

If the 5th tenant does stay as a “guest”, or the tenants quietly move in a replacement person into the spare bedroom without telling you (they have form in this area), I would have thought you’d still be vulnerable to being classed as an HMO, even if you claim you didn’t know the 5th person was living there. Norwich Council are going to be pretty miffed if they think you are deliberately evading HMO registration and they could prosecute you. From their point of view (and the 2004 Housing Act’s) you have allowed the tenants to create a health and safety hazard. As a “fit and proper person”, landlords are meant to know who is occupying their properties, and if by neglect or omission your property becomes a licensable HMO, that’s your problem not the council’s or the tenants’.

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http://www.property118.com/ Mark Alexander

In response to Tony & Gilly

In Norfolk, any property with three or more tenants is an HMO. Licence fees are payable if there are three or more floors or 5 or more tenants.

My property already has fire doors, fully wired smoke alarms etc. That was imposed on the developers by the planners.

I’m not losing out financially by losing a letting room. The decision to renew the contract with four tenants at the same rate was their decision. They know I could easily rent the property to a family at the same rent. I’m not into managing shared houses or HMO’s. The only reason I let to these tenants is that they are such a cohesive little group, the closest thing you could ever get to a family. Arguably they are better to have than a family as they all earn decent money and are all mature professionals so no teenage parties to worry about.

The point about a long term guest does slightly me but how would I ever know. I suppose that if a 5th person were to move in and was on the voters roll elsewhere I would never know about it. How I’d know about it if they did register on the voters roll is questionable too as I can’t realistically see myself doing the checks that Paul has suggested. For me the bottom line is that I have done everything reasonably possible now. If a 5th person does move in and this get’s picked up I would like to think my reasonable actions would stand me in good stead.

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Paul Barrett

With these problems on HMO’s and the looming need for more rooms to be available as these claimants will probably not be able to afford the 1 bed flats etc they presently are occupying; can you see many LL buying up big houses and converting to HMO with ALL the attendant costs when the LHA room rate is something pathetic like £67.00 per week.
I worked out the figures for renting a room for viability as lodger.
I would charge £150.00 pw
This is £7800.00 per year
Now subtract the loss of Single Persons Discount; which in my case is £325.00
This means the net rental income would be £7475.00
Divide this by 52 weeks
£143.75
Divided by 7 days
=£20.53
Divided by 24 hrs = £0.85 per hr!!
Now factor into the equation increased usage of utilities, domestic consumables.
Also loss of privacy.
Having their mates sometimes in the property.
All this is on £150 pw.
Now they only receive £67.00 per week LHA allowance
That works out at £60.75 per week
£8.67 per day
£0.36 per hr
No one in their right mind is going to take these claimants on.
A 4 bed hose would only bring in just over £1000..
I am sure a 4 bed house would rent out to a family without any HMO conversion.
Anyone who has a B & B will make a killing as that is the only accommodation that will be available to them.

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Benreevelewis

Well PV, I have to say I sat here laughing tears at your reply. Not at your expense but a laugh of recognition at the ridiculousness of it all.

I work for a local authority in London and am also a trainer of housing law for the Chartered Institute of Housing. Some months ago I read a similar query on Property 118 and told Mark I intended to write the ‘definitive defintion’…like that manager you spoke to. I began by finding the definition set down in the legislation itself and then looked on government websites. All was going ok until I started to google around different council websites and began feeling like I had seriously misunderstood the basics.

So I made a list of questions and decided on the Monday to call my own council’s HMO Licensing team, who I work closely with and get the ‘Definitve definition’ from guys I have known for years and go for a pint with. What I was told made me email Mark back and tell him I couldnt write the article as nobody seemed to agree on even some of the basic points.
@Definitve:disqus�
My own understanding, for what its worth (and I admit I dont stand confidently behind any of this these days) is that once there are 3 persons occupying a property who are unrelated then it is offically an HMO but it only becomes eligible for mandatory licensing once there are 5 or more people and 3 floors and further to that, the landlord is only elgibile to pay council tax on an HMO if each occpaunt has a seperate tenancy agreement. If it’s a joint tenancy then the tenants should pay.

One difference of opinion that I encountered when I was researching for my article was that some council’s, but not all, counted a married couple as effectively a single person when sharing with others, so a property would only be considered to be occupied by 3 people if there was a married couple and 2 unrelated others.

I also seem to recall that the legislation states that an annex can count as a floor of the building if it is connected to the main building by stairs but my team told me that was rubbish, it was only if the dweller in the annex had to enter the main building to use facilities.

Anyway, I finally solved it all. I made an appointment with my Doctor and got some tranquilisers and a picture book with some Bunnies in it to look at whenever it occurs to me to ask about HMOs

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Paul Barrett

Very funny both of you; but what an appalling situation that is going to be visited on LL and TRO’s when the shared room rate age kicks in ; in April.
I think hymn book ; all singing from springs to mind.
Perhaps Mr Shapps would bring some actual definition to what the hell is going on.
This as it seems there are a lot of confused housing professionals out there.
If they are confused what chance does the poor old little landlord stand to know what to do regarding his business.

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Benreevelewis

Yeah absolutely Paul. All joking aside I think it is a major but largely hidden issue that has dreadful consequences for landlords caught by the misinformation and tenants who may be being wrongly charged counicl tax.

For once I dont think it is Shapps’s issue but should be laid more at the feet of the Minsitry of Justice, Communites and Local Government and maybe even the HCA.

Maybe Mark P118 should mount a campaign.

Shared room rate is already in by the way, January 1st

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Paul Barrett

Isn’t it nice to know we have joined up govenment!!!!?

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Pvhaines

Glad you found it funny, it was meant to raise a smile….frustrating as hell at the time – but I guess if you don’t laugh you will cry real tears! Cutting through the red tape was a job and a half, at one point I considered selling up my properties if what Liverpool CC were telling me was true. As they would have me belive that all my 3 bed terraces let to 3 people were HMO’s that needed to be registered and that I was liable for the council tax on all my properties. Fortunately, from past experience I take everything they tell me with a pinch of salt….many hours of research later I found that for COUNCIL TAX purposes, If you rent the property to more than 1 person, but they are joint tenants, then they are jointly responsible for the paying the council tax, and for REGISTRATION purposes if it is only 2 storeys it does not need to be registered. A hugh relief at the time!!

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Tony Atkins

I feel fortunate that my local authority agrees with the definition that a licensable HMO is three storeys and five tenants, and that the general definition of an HMO as three or more unrelated people isn’t really of interest to anyone.

However I’d missed the subtlety that if you have individual tenancy agreements then the landlord is liable for the council tax. I pay the council tax anyway on my shared houses, just because I’ve lost count of the times someone has moved out and failed to transfer the bill to their replacement, which means the bill gets left unpaid and the house receives a court summons. It’s just simpler to conclude that tenants are useless as regards bills, handle it oneself and get them to pay a fixed amount every month on top of the rent to cover the bills. I always over-estimate the bills to cover myself in case someone starts running the central heating all day, and I settle up and reimburse any overpayment when someone moves out.

It’s all yet more hassle but worth putting up with because often a houseshare is the only way to make a large Victorian house viable. Also, if you lose one non-paying tenant in a houseshare, at least the other four or five are paying, whereas if you take a single family in a large house, all it needs is for the main wage-earner to lose his or her job and as landlord you are stuffed. Voids also tend to be higher on single ASTs, whereas rent income is more reliable with a rolling-occupancy houseshare.

I learnt to avoid licensable HMOs like the plague about ten years ago when I tangled with the nightmare that is Oxford City Council: they wanted to destroy my lovely old Victorian rented houseshare on a single AST with fire doors, a virtually-rebuilt staircase, fire escape signs and the whole paraphenalia of bedsits; they even started talking about compulsory handbasins in every room which I thought died out in the 1980s. To my mind licensible HMOs are just not worth the effort: either stick to two storeys or go the whole hog and convert the house into bedsits, if you think there is a market for it.

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Jim-donaldson

When is a bedsit, not a bedsit, I have a bedsit with own kitchen,but large enough to put in a shower room with Loo,hand basin and shower. What planning permission or building reg’s do I require ? Has anybody met with this problem /

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jayne

im also very confused on hmo rules. I live in gwynedd and own 3 storey (4 if you include the ground floor) I live in the property with my 2 children. I thought i could rent out 3 bedrooms with full use of the whole house and facilities. ( these people are friends of mine) but my council say thats not allowed as they are not from the same family and would then make the house a hmo. In such they would need fire alarms, extra fire extinguishers, back up lighting, fire escape signs and fire fires putting in. Way above my pocket. Are they correct or just digging for extra revenue

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http://www.property118.com/ Mark Alexander

Hi Jayne, I have invited Ben Reeve-Lewis and Mary Latham to comment on this as they are the industry experts. I have an inckling that the Council are right but I’m not sure enough of my ground to confirm that or to offer you any suggestions.

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Mary Latham

Jayne the maximum number of lodgers one can take into ones home is 2, by taking more the property is classed as an HMO and must meet all the HMO property and management standards.

In the case of your property you would need also an HMO licence because, even taking only 2 lodgers would mean, a total of 5 unrelated people (including you and your children) would be sharing facilities over 4 floors of habitable rooms.

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Benreevelewis

I agree with that in principle myself Mary but I have also encountered 2 varying ideas on this held by serving EHOs which is to do with whether or not a couple counts effectively as a single person. Some say yes, in which case 2 lodgers can be taken on but others say no, which means where a couple are in residence it only takes 1 lodger to make it an HMO.

It is rapidly becoming clear that being au-fait with the statutes on HMOs is nothing when compared to the sometimes distinctly whacky interpretations being taken by not only different counicls but also officers within a single council

This is particularly important in the light of the announcement by Oxford City Council to extend mandatory licensing to all HMO, regardless of number of occupants or number of floors (effective from Monday) So even a 3 person flat share on a joint tenancy by 3 best mates will have to be licensed

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http://www.property118.com/ Mark Alexander

Our News team reported on the position being introduced by Oxford yesterday Ben – see the link below
http://www.property118.com/index.php/first-blanket-hmo-licensing-scheme-starts-in-oxford/23757/

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http://www.property118.com/ Mark Alexander

Ben, something has just occurred to me. As there is nothing in the statute books to suggest that 3 people sharing a property make it a licenceable HMO, is what Oxford Council are implementing on Monday even legal? If a landlord letting a house to three people refused to pay the HMO licensing fee what could Oxford Council actually do about it?

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Mary Latham

Mark a property that is defined as an HMO in the HA 2004 is subject to Mandatory licensing if it has 5 or more occupiers, who form 2 or more households, sharing facilities which are on 3 or more floors.

If an authority decides to use its powers of Selective or Additional licensing these powers apply to properties that fall below the numbers above. A property just needs to be occupied by more than two households (unrelated people) sharing facilities to be an HMO.

If a landlord fails to apply for an HMO licence there are severe penalties but in my opinion the most severe is the fact that you cannot use Section 8 for repossession without and HMO licence number if the property is an HMO.

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http://www.property118.com/ Mark Alexander

That’s not very severe then in my opinion. The ability for a tenant to defend against a section 8 makes if pretty much not worth the paper it’s written on. In theory it’s great to be able to give a bad tenant two weeks notice but I’ve yet to see an example of when this has lead to an eviction quicker than serving a Section 21 notice which gibes the tenant two months notice to vacate and can not be defended. That said, you probably have more experience than me based on the number of landlords you meet and the amount of time you have been in this business. Do you have any examples of where a defended section 8 has resulted in a faster eviction than could have been achieved than if a S21 was served. If so, roughly what percentage of cases and what you you generally recommend that landlords utilise?

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Mary Latham

Actually Mark I agree and I always tell landlords to go for a Section 21 if they can wait. Anti social behaviour or none payment of rent early in the tenancy are the main reasons why some landlords cannot use Section21 but using Section 8 does not always get possession any quicker.

If landlords would use Statory Periodics rather than issuing new fixed term AST’s life would be much simpler

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Mary Latham

The HA 2004 defines an HMO in terms of the number of “households” rather than people/families and the term household is clearly defined within the act. An HMO, for the purpose of the HA 2004, is about the number of “households” who share facilities within a buiding. The term HMO has an entirely different definition for Council Tax liability and depends on the contract(s) (Tenancy Agreements) that define the use of the building, this is totally unrelated to the actual use or number of users.

This is what the Housing Act says in relation to households (not for council tax)
section 254
(2) persons are to be regarded as not forming a single household unless-
a - they are all members of the same family, or b – their circumstances are circumstances of a description specified for the purposes of this section in regulations made by the appropriate national authority.
(3) For the purpose of subsection 2(a) a person is a member of the same family as another person if-
a - those persons are married to each other or live together a husband and wife (or an equivalent relationship in the case of persons of the same sex); b - one of them is a relative of the other, or c - one of them is, or is a relative of, one member of a couple and the other is a relative of the other member of the couple
(4) For the purposes-a - a “couple” means two persons who are married to each other or otherwise fall within subsection (3)(a); b - “relative” means parent, grandparent, child, grandchild, brother, sister, uncle, aunt, nephew, niece or cousin; c - a relationship of a half-blood shall be treated as a relationship of the whole blood; and d - the stepchild of a person shall be treated a his child

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Paul Rotherham

I notice the Sheffield Website gets a good mention in the thread above. http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/hmo I just want to correct one area of confusion – not in relation to Council Tax but re: families and HMO and HMO licensing status.A family of however many people letting out part of the property to three tenants on three storeys will be an HMO but will not require a licensing under the mandatory scheme as the family count as one person. In summary Family + 2 lodgers – not an HMOFamily + 3 lodgers – HMOFamily + 4 lodgers in a three storey property – Mandatory Licensable HMO.Paul Rotherham

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http://www.property118.com/ Mark Alexander

Thanks for commenting Paul. I also very much appreciated our offline conversation. I was particularly interested to hear that you can access Council Tax exemptions records to identify HMO’s for students and benefits claimants, which, as you say are the majority of HMO’s. I was also very interested in the legislation that you quoted which will allow you to prosecute agents who manage (not let) HMO’s which are licenceable but not licensed. If you would like to write a blog about that, quoting the relevant sections of law, I would be delighted to publicise it here.

I was pleased to hear that you have met with the three landlords associations in Sheffield to discuss HMO licencing fees and that these discussions seem to be going well. Sheffield landlords are very lucky to have somebody in your position who clearly understands both the rules and the practicalities surrounding PRS housing.

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Paul Barrett

Surely anyone with a 3 bed house where there is a couple occupying will if they wish; rent out to lodgers who ARE NOT LHA claimants
Nobody will know .
This leaves LHA claimants not even able to be a lodger in a house with some spare rooms as LHA claimants will be notified to council tax dept who will notify housing dept who will then pick up whether an HMO has been registered…
Consequently no one will tell the council of private lodgers and this leaves a valuable spare room resource to house LHA claimants unavailble for them.

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http://www.property118.com/ Mark Alexander

Are the Council departments that well joined up though? From reading Ben’s posts here I suspect not. If they are, it will could picked up between the electoral roll and the planning department whether the lodgers are benefits claiments or not. It will be interesting to see what happens in Oxford.

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http://www.property118.com/ Mark Alexander

If you see the “Caring is Sharing” buttons below the main article you will see a print option. Click that and you have a choice on whether to print to a printer or convert the page into a PDF which you can then forward via email.

Alternatively, why not email a link to this article to your agent?

Third option, just ask your letting agent to Google search “My HMO Dilemma” and this article comes up number 1 page 1. All articles on Property118 are search engine optimised in this way.

I hope this helps.

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Mary Latham

Tut I meant section 21 Ben – multi tasking doesnt always work even for a woman

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Paul Barrett

You just made me LOL; very funny, tears to eyes job!.
I have to say the last comment is so true.
Life could be made a lot easier for everybody if your strategy was followed.

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John Walker

Hi Mark,
It sounds as though this is a house in multiple occupation, with tenants sharing at least some facilities. The LA in which I operate classes a house which has been converted into self contained flats as an HMO, though as yet have not demanded they be licensed.

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http://www.property118.com/ Mark Alexander

There is no doubt that it is a HMO John, fortunately though it is in Norwich and not Oxford so with 4 tenants now it is not licensable and I’m not obliged to pay theextortionate HMO licence fee which Norwich City Council have recently increased to £1,800

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Mary Latham

Many local authorities offer discounts on their licence fees to recognise good practice. In my area these are typically 10% for being accredited through an eduction based scheme, 10% for being a member of a recognised landlords association or similar professional organisation. 10% for multiple applications. 10% for early applications.

These authorities also load the fee if a landlord avoids licensing and they have to chase him/her

If your local authority are not recognising good practice they need to be asked why

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Mike

An interesting set of comments which I would break into 2 threads: 1. On HMOs and 2. LA incompetence (and lack of knowledge)

In respect of HMOs Scottish law is somewhat ahead of England & Wales. But the principle is an HMO has to be registered. And an HMO is 3 unrelated people. An unmarried couple living together is one person.

But I’m surprised that nobody picked up on the licence cost. £1800!!!

When the HMO legislation was brought into law there was a clearly stated intention that is was not to discourage people. The costs should be minimised and income should ONLY be used for HMO expenditure.

One council in Scotland, broke that rule and was the subject of complaints to the Auditors etc. They accually deliberately used the fees for generating additional income for other purposes. It has now reduced its fees by over 50%. From £1200 to £550. Although they are refusing to give refunds for the 2 years of excessive fees.

On Council incompentence:
The public do not know the rules of the game. I always ask for something in writing. Preferrably by email as it saves my postage costs. Failure to respond immediately (within 2-3 weeks) makes me raise a complaint. It is difficult for someone to change what they said even if wrong because then they can be accused of making a mistake and of course open up the liability of that mistake.

All councils must have a complaints proceedure. COMPLAIN. In scotland there are 3 levels that one has to go through with the Council (the last with the CEO), before you go to the ombudsman. The ombudsman has the ability to issue a compensatory decision.

The above works wonders.

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Benreevelewis

Mike I too was shocked by Mark’s £1,800 figure – that’s crazy. If ever there was a time when a councils need landlords it is post SAR age limit increase to 35 and to try and whack that sort of money beggars belief in my opinion.
�
Interpretations of HMO regs shouldn’t be like this. I know of no other area of landlord/tenant law where this happens, perhaps with the exception of the disintegration of deposit legislation that fell apart dramatically for everybody because it was evidently drafted in a rush by a legal team under too much pressure to keep their central government masters happy, as will definitely be the case with the Localism Act. Case laws will often throw up anomalies of opinion when the complexities of people’s lives rub up against statutes but interpretations of basic statutory criteria should be easy to determine.
�
I can say that working in a council you can feel the shifts, the sea changes as various senior managers tune in to various trends out there and if Oxford announces this scheme you can bet your life there will be other councils looking to jockey for position and get the brownie points. This has nothing to do with the practicalities of achieving said goal. That isn’t the issue, “Being seen to” tackle the issue is where the local authority political capital can be gained.

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Francisdolley

Hi Everyone. Great thread. Both funny and a little sad! Ben’s article summed it up a few months ago – the more you dig, the more confusing it gets. I tend to always install fire doors, mains alarms, fire blanket and a few extinguishers as a minimum whether I need to or not. I was in a 4th floor fire a number of years ago and realise how quickly fire/smoke can disorient you, even in a home you know well. Scary.
You can buy some very nice quality fire doors these days and fit sprung hinges, doing away with the need for unsightly overhead closers or perko’s.

I’m busy lovingly converting a large Victorian 3 floor into a 6 bed/6 en-suite fully licensed HMO. The property will have 2 bedrooms on each floor. One of the 1st and 2nd floor bedrooms will also have their own kitchen facilities. How will this fit in with the rules. I have my first visit from the local HMO officer tomorrow and will be quoting sections of this thread at every oppertunity!

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http://www.property118.com/ Mark Alexander

Hi Francis

If you would like to write a short series of articles about your latest HMO development and include before, during and after pictures I would be delighted to publish them here for you. My personal email is mark@property118.com and my office phone number is 01603 489118.

Good luck with your meeting

Regards

Mark

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Mary Latham

Francis I have fought and lost a case with the Valuation Office on behalf of a landlord who has developed properties in a similar way to you. This is the issue for my landlord

An HMO will be banded for Council Tax as a single dwelling and the liability will be dependant upon the number of AST’s that are in place. The buildings have been large HMO’s with tenantds sharing facilities for years and the landlord has paid the Council Tax

The landlord decided to develope some of his buildings and bring them up to date by making them self contained units with en suite shower rooms and kitchenetts. There was no major structural work just stud walls and new door ways in exisiting walls.

At some point the VOA became aware that the use of the property had changed and they arrange to visit to revalue for Council Tax. They valued each unit at band A and this increased the overall Council Tax bill by 400%

The landland reduced the rent by the amount that he had been paying in Council Tax but he lost most of his tenants who were on low incomes and could not afford to pay the additional Council Tax.

You may have taken this into consideration but I thought that is was worth mentioning.

This is a doucment that you might find useful for fire safety and security guidance http://www.homestamp.com/fire-standards/

I was asked to remove my fire extinguishers because they encourage tenants to fight the fire when what we want is for them to leave as quickly as possible – it had not occured to me but when you think about it this makes good sense.

How did your meeting go?

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Paul Barrett

You should replace those extinguishers ASAP.
They are not designed to fight fires; they are there to protect the means of escape for the occupants
The rule is if there is a fire close all doors and evacuate.
You may need an extinquisher to facilitate your egress from a property
Of course you call 999 aswell..

Like or Dislike: 0 0

Mary Latham

Paul I took my extinguishers out at the request of West Midlands Fire Service who told me that they caused more harm than good. My HMO’s are only ground and first floor with a maximum of 5 tenants, all rooms have hard wired interlinked smoke alarms, as do corridors and heat detector in the kitchen, all doors are fire doors and all windows are fire escape windows. The exit route, that can be used if tenants don’t want to jump from an upstairs window, is 1/2 fire protected as are all ceilings. West Midlands Fire Service do not want fire extinguishers in buildings of this size. My student lets were set up like this in the early 80′s and that is why I had fire extinguishers in the first place.

Shame really the students used to use them to prop open fire doors and torment each other at parties hahahaha

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